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Cartridges 'voiced' to sound like CD. Possible?

catman

catman

Addicted Member
Banned
G'day all, on another vinyl forum today I read something that I thought was interesting, and made me think. There was a suggestion that the Ortofon 2M Red was 'voiced' to sound like 'CD sound'.

I admit that I've never really considered that possibility and I realised my own Ortofon 2M Red with its overly crisp treble and strong lower bass does indeed somewhat remind me of 'CD sound'.

That possibly explains why that cartridge goes generally unused here. It seemed odd to me that anyone would 'voice' a phono cartridge to so like CD, or is it? Curious. :scratch2: Regards, Felix aka catman.
 
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catman said:
G'day all, on another vinyl forum today I read something that I thought was interesting, and made me think. There was a suggestion that the Ortofon 2M Red was 'voiced' to sound like 'CD sound'.

I admit that I've never really considered that possibility and I realised my own Ortofon 2M Red with its overly crisp treble and strong lower bass does indeed somewhat remind me of 'CD sound'.

That possibly explains why that cartridge goes generally unused here. It seemed odd to me that anyone would 'voice' a phono cartridge to so like CD, or is it? Curious. :scratch2: Regards, Felix aka catman.
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That thought has crossed my mind many times but then again we have to admit that these days some CD players are designed to sound like LP's.
I first became aware of this phenomena when running an Audio Technica OC 9 Mk II. It was so close to the nastiness of early CD players in the upper treble I had it tamed by Kerry Williams of Garrott Bros. Fewer headaches.
 
However, there has been a trend in HiFi over the last decade, if not more, to go for more forward, leaner, detailed sound in amplifiers and speakers. To my mind this is what Ortofon, following in the path of AT, may be trying to do.

I don't think it has anything to do with CDs attempting to sound like turntables or cartridges trying to sound like CDs. In the end, the two can sound remarkably similar, and excellent to boot. Frankly, were it not for pops, clicks and surface noise, in a blind test it would be hard to pick between the two.
 
I would argue that the better both Vinyl and CD systems are, the more they sound alike.

Perfection in either medium should sound the same as perfection in the other medium.

I think a symptom of the attitude to vinyl over the last 15 to 20 years is the way Shure re-issued the V15V as the V15Vx.... and re-"tuned" the sound for a more "audiophile" profile.

(Previous goals were neutrality, and perfect reproduction of the original recording)

Noticeable in the new "audiophile" profile was more prominent bass "warmer" and recessed treble...

In this review:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1001/dynavector.htm
the Dynavector Karat is described as sounding "digital".
But not in the negative sense, rather in all the positive aspects that digital provides... digital as it should be.

One of the main aspects of the Karat is a very very flat frequency response.... and a lack of various anomalies (phase, resonances, etc..) it is one of the most perfect vinyl reproducers of a square wave...
It is NOT I hasten to say the perfect cartridge - as it has a rather narrow soundstage, due to limited seperation.

But it provides a very good example of a cartridge sounding "CD like" in the best possible way.

The more a designer tries to tune his cartridge for true neutrality, the more it will sound "CD Like"....

bye for now

David
 
dlaloum said:
I would argue that the better both Vinyl and CD systems are, the more they sound alike.

Perfection in either medium should sound the same as perfection in the other medium.

bye for now

David
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I agree. :thmbsp: and if you don't mind David I'd add and the more they also sound like real music.

Dave/ChairSpud
 
dlaloum said:
I would argue that the better both Vinyl and CD systems are, the more they sound alike.
Click to expand...

100 % agreement with this statement. My impression is that whatever differences might be, these can be considered as a consequence of the compromises made (to keep the costs contained) in the BOTL or MOTL models in both categories. In my present system, my CD and LP rigs are basically equivalent (Astin Trew AT 3500+ CDP and Benz Micro Ace LOMC+Clearaudio Emotion TT+Clearaudio Nano phono preamp), but it took me some effort to get there.
 
What would "CD voicing" be? Flat response? I thought most things attempted that regardless.

CD players vary just like turntable and cartridge combinations (I just spent an hour comparing my Marantz and Meitner CD players).

The higher up you go, as others have said, the more things start to sound the same.
 
I agree there is no "voicing" It is either accurate or not. The better the gear the less the gear editorializes on the music.
 
dlaloum said:
In this review:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1001/dynavector.htm
the Dynavector Karat is described as sounding "digital".
But not in the negative sense, rather in all the positive aspects that digital provides... digital as it should be.

One of the main aspects of the Karat is a very very flat frequency response.... and a lack of various anomalies (phase, resonances, etc..) it is one of the most perfect vinyl reproducers of a square wave...
It is NOT I hasten to say the perfect cartridge - as it has a rather narrow soundstage, due to limited seperation.

But it provides a very good example of a cartridge sounding "CD like" in the best possible way.

The more a designer tries to tune his cartridge for true neutrality, the more it will sound "CD Like"....

bye for now

David
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I would like more actual data than is provided in that review you have linked to. The square wave info is actually from Dynavector's promo material and the frequency response chart shown is the one that came with the cart, which I don't believe at all. (I have a similar flat chart that came with my Denon 103, and I know that cart isn't flat.)

I have never heard the Karat, but the reviewer states that "Listening to the music through the Karat, you always have the feeling that this is exactly what was recorded in the studio." I would like to see a statement like that coming from a mastering engineer who is cutting the records. Strangely, those engineers that compare the master tape to the record use the lowly Shure as the benchmark, and they say that is the cart that "gets it right". Again, I have never heard the Karat, but based on what I have read I don't think there would be too many mastering engineers that would agree with that reviewer.
 
spiralfool said:
Strangely, those engineers that compare the master tape to the record use the lowly Shure as the benchmark, and they say that is the cart that "gets it right".
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I would like more actual data, too...who are these engineers, and at what point in time does this information come from? I like the Shure V-15vmr just fine, I think its a fantastic cart...but the Dynavector Karat will sound as good or better depending on the arm it's attached to. Just because a recording engineer likes the Shure carts is no reason to assume they wouldn't like the excellent Dynavector cart just as well or more, or that it couldn't possibly measure up to the Shures.
 
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Please count me among the folks who say if you're hearing THAT much of a difference between CDs and LPs, then something is falling short in one or the other sources in your set up.

OTOH, I recently read in another thread around here that some people prefer the coloration of a veil over their music.
And that's their perogative.
 
Do is a little reading at the various mastering-based discussion sites. The point in time the information comes from is now. Mastering engineers don't go for designer-based eqs. They just want boring old flat, or something reasonably neutral. They believe Shure does that.

It actually drives them nuts to hear these MC carts that "dig out new details in the grooves" as reviewers like to say. The mastering engineer feels if they wanted that stuff highlighted they would have cut it that way. There is a whole thread on the topic called Audiophiles don't really want NEUTRAL. Audiophiles don't really like NEUTRAL.
 
In my system, the AT440ML sounds more like my CD setup than do the Shure or Ortofon carts I've tried.
 
spiralfool said:
Do is a little reading at the various mastering-based discussion sites. The point in time the information comes from is now. Mastering engineers don't go for designer-based eqs. They just want boring old flat, or something reasonably neutral. They believe Shure does that.

It actually drives them nuts to hear these MC carts that "dig out new details in the grooves" as reviewers like to say. The mastering engineer feels if they wanted that stuff highlighted they would have cut it that way. There is a whole thread on the topic called Audiophiles don't really want NEUTRAL. Audiophiles don't really like NEUTRAL.
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You and they are making a whole lot of assumptions about what audiophiles want, considering you have said you have not heard the Dynavector Karat. And a cart can't 'dig out' something that was not cut into the record in the first place. If it measures flat, it is flat. Not all high end MCs measure flat, and of course some people like a more colored sound...but that is no reason to assume that anybody who buys a high priced MC isn't after the same thing that the mastering engineers are after, or that all of them distort the sound in some audiophile-approved manner that isn't what the engineers like.

Feel free to set up a system using shure carts, Bryston amplification and Genelec monitors. You'll have a very pro-approved system and it will sound good. But that is no reason to think that is the only way to get to "flat."
 
Off topic, but, JohnVF, how do you rate the Genelec monitors? I'm thinking of a computer-based study system here.
 
avole said:
Off topic, but, JohnVF, how do you rate the Genelec monitors? I'm thinking of a computer-based study system here.
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I like them for their purpose but I don't sit in front of them all day. My role in studios is usually to pop in and pop out, and I'm usually passing judgement on dialogue and not music. But I have listened to music on them...very clear and detailed but 'dry' and analytical to a fault and I'm sure, by design. I sat in a room a few weeks ago with 2-way Dynaudio monitors that I really liked, and I like the Mackies we have at work, too. Again...I'm not an audio engineer. I end up in studios all the time but its because I'm a creative director at an ad agency, and I have to supervise audio mixes as well as pick music tracks for film and whatnot. I have old Fostex RM-765 monitors on my desk, with coaxial ribbon tweeters....these I really like.

My friend who sits in front of Genelecs all day (a film editor) beamed when he heard Harbeth Compact 7s at a store with me...his comment was "they don't grate on my ears like the Genelecs"...so maybe he was a better judge than I?
 
I honestly must say I don´t understand. How can anything be voiced to sound good and accurate? No cartridge can sound as good as a cd, and IMO 2MRed are very far from.
The best cartridges and styli I have cannot match my cdp, ok this cpd is very good but so is my vinylsystem.
Seems more like a misthinking to me.
gusten
 
I'm not so sure a cart can be made to sound like a CD. In fact, as I'm thinking about it, I don't think it has much to do with it.
I know of no CD player designed to sound like a turntable, I would also think it would be a waste of time to try to design one in my opinion. You can't get warm analog full sound from a digital source in my opinion. Even when you digitize vinyl (even with the finest gear) you still lose a little in the transition. That said though going that direction it is much easier to get close at least.

Assuming said TT is set up correctly and has a decent cart and such, I think CD quality sound (assuming we are talking about noiseless) from a TT is mostly obtained from a combo of the trinity = Good setup, Decent cart and Clean vinyl.:D:music:

I have some records that match CDs in being noiseless and they are used (not overplayed) and cleaned. It's all in the cleaning so to speak. They sound nothing like they did before cleaning.
 
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