Carver / Phase Linear - I Seek Truth

[Funky54]

I Can't find "Real" answers to my questions about vintage Carver or Phase Linear amps. I'm looking for a sound improvement or even a parallel move, but this is about vanity. It's like choosing your favorite NFL team by what helmets you like. I want silver. You heard me, I don't care if that sounds like I'm not serious about sound, cause I am. But I want a silver faced amp. I'm going to a rack and only want two channel and turntables showing.

Maybe you've seen one of my other two threads about Bi-Amping or 200 WPC Warhorses? I want to change something in regards to amps with my Mains. Please do not tell me to change "other" components. This is about amps and amp alone.

What's the truth about the following...
b700
b700 II
400
C-500

Will they sound worse than my Outlaw Audio 755? Will bass suffer? Will they really "Blow Up" and burn my drivers? Are they awesome or are they nastalgic myth?

Last I know many will list some very high end amps that I simply can't afford. I'm looking used or new, Vintage or modern but around $1,000.00

My Speakers:
Acarion Systems Alon IV (12", 5.5" and 1", no crossovers just filters to each speaker, 8 ohm)

Current Amp:
Outlaw Audio 755 ( 200 WPC @ 8ohm.)

All that will remain showing are the LCR, two tube phono preamp's, the two turntables and hopefully one Silver amp or two silver amps as Monoblocks. Everything else goes to a rack.
The entertainment center will be changed as well.

 

[Bucky Badger]

I sure love my 700b. I have never heard a WOPL 400 or 700 but from all accounts they are top notch. Have never had a problem with any of my 400's or 700 blowing up. They used to be called 'Flame Linears' because they were pushed to hard by some bands at the time and would occas. have a melt down. Have never heard of anyones properly working PL amp to flame out doing home duty.

 

[Funky54]

Could either of you guys tell me how they stack up to modern amps? What character do they have in way of sound print? How does the 400 compare to the b700 sound wise?

I really do need help deciding what to do. I could go with a used Bryston 4b, Classe, Aragon.... I just want someone who has tried lots to explain the different sonic footprints.

 

[Bucky Badger]

I have had no experience with the amp's you've mentioned so I can't help you there. I have a 400 pushing some Infinity RSII's. Another 400 pushing some PL Andromedas and a 700B playin' with a pair of Infinity QLS1's. All of my speakers are kinda dif. from each other so to say that they sound a certain way is hard to do. They sound great with all these speakers. Maybe the best way to find out how they sound to you is to tell us where you are and maybe someone local would give ya a listen. Hopefully someone will be by that can describe the 'signature' sound better than I. I think that they sound kinda warm and more than capable of pushing my speakers. Not 'warm' like a Marantz 2230 but maybe like a Sansui AU 717 but others will probably not agree. IMHO and only my opinion.
Good luck in your quest Sir Knight.

 

[Funky54]

I have had no experience with the amp's you've mentioned so I can't help you there. I have a 400 pushing some Infinity RSII's. Another 400 pushing some PL Andromedas and a 700B playin' with a pair of Infinity QLS1's. All of my speakers are kinda dif. from each other so to say that they sound a certain way is hard to do. They sound great with all these speakers. Maybe the best way to find out how they sound to you is to tell us where you are and maybe someone local would give ya a listen. Hopefully someone will be by that can describe the 'signature' sound better than I. I think that they sound kinda warm and more than capable of pushing my speakers. Not 'warm' like a Marantz 2230 but maybe like a Sansui AU 717 but others will probably not agree. IMHO and only my opinion.
Good luck in your quest Sir Knight.

Thanks for the feed back. My system as is, is on the warm side. (If anyone really is on the same page with even the term warm lol) I don't think the bass or treble is accentuated or missing. It's detailed but not in anyway harsh. It's airy and the sound stage is high and wide. I'm fine if it does something different, as long as it's good.

Your infinity RSii are similar in that the mids and highs are open and sort of suspended. Your tens probably offer a nice tight sound that's rated down to 36hz. One concern with my own is that they are 12's rated down to 19hz and I e measured mine hitting 17hz at 101 db without distorting. So I can't tell by that what might change with bass.

The QSL1's are rated similar to mine at 18hz... So that's a little closer to mine. Do you think a 400 would drive them well?

 

[Bucky Badger]

Thanks for the feed back. My system as is, is on the warm side. (If anyone really is on the same page with even the term warm lol) I don't think the bass or treble is accentuated or missing. It's detailed but not in anyway harsh. It's airy and the sound stage is high and wide. I'm fine if it does something different, as long as it's good.

Your infinity RSii are similar in that the mids and highs are open and sort of suspended. Your tens probably offer a nice tight sound that's rated down to 36hz. One concern with my own is that they are 12's rated down to 19hz and I e measured mine hitting 17hz at 101 db without distorting. So I can't tell by that what might change with bass.

The QSL1's are rated similar to mine at 18hz... So that's a little closer to mine. Do you think a 400 would drive them well?

So do I think my 400's would push the QLS1's, No. Not the right amp for that job if you want to get the most from these speakers. I should be using 2 700B's, and they should be WOPL'd. That would give me the best these speakers could offer.......... Well maybe not the BEST but in my price range the best. My 700 B works really well with the 1's but 2 700's would be better.

 

[Northwinds]

There is nothing like a WOPL be it a 400 or 700 version. They are like a car that will go faster then you will ever drive but it's nice to know it's there if you get an itchy foot. I tend to be one of those people that listen WAY too loud but I have yet to get even get a WOPL500 to clip. You just can't stand in the same room for long at those SPL's. People here have seen my vids with the meters laying flat to the right and the amp is still singing sweet and clean with more on tap

Sabbitha is almost done, my speakers are quaking in fear anticipating her coming home. She is a Clair Brothers Audio spec 700 that was used for the Dio era Black Sabbath tours. Now she is being reborn into something Bob Carver could not do due to technology limitations at the time these were originally made

Scary when she starts out looking like this, an awful lot of work and expensive parts go into making a monster

and when done

Perry is offering a few of these rare Clair Audio versions on BST

 

[blhagstrom]

The "truth" about "flame linears" is the the original 700 did NOT have enough output transisters or heat sink to go to 350wpc for long heavy use.

Being a new-amp-on-the-block with that kind of power, the 700 gave the bands an option to the Crown 300 amps. Being much easier to change blown outputs, the band techs liked them. They just were not beefy enough for the power.

If you ever see a 700 you will realize that very easily. Bob really pushed the edge on those.

The II and B versions are fine. Much more heat sink and output transisters.

Carver made some good gear but pushed the edge so hard that I feel the gear is "twitchy". A certain unit may work fine or it may have "issues".

 

[Funky54]

There is nothing like a WOPL be it a 400 or 700 version. They are like a car that will go faster then you will ever drive but it's nice to know it's there if you get an itchy foot. I tend to be one of those people that listen WAY too loud but I have yet to get even get a WOPL500 to clip. You just can't stand in the same room for long at those SPL's. People here have seen my vids with the meters laying flat to the right and the amp is still singing sweet and clean with more on tap

Sabbitha is almost done, my speakers are quaking in fear anticipating her coming home. She is a Clair Brothers Audio spec 700 that was used for the Dio era Black Sabbath tours. Now she is being reborn into something Bob Carver could not do due to technology limitations at the time these were originally made

Scary when she starts out looking like this, an awful lot of work and expensive parts go into making a monster

and when done

Perry is offering a few of these rare Clair Audio versions on BST

Nothing good can come from running on bud light. Listening could cause headaches and a new definition to "brown sound"

That amp is beautiful, thanks for sharing. I listen normally at about 85 db but sometimes more. I can play my gear at 101db and not even know it's that loud. I hate to give that up by going to another amp. That's why I want to know for sure that I won't lose anything.

 

[Northwinds]

Yeah, I razzed Perry about the Bud Light cans myself but he claims he would have to cut a hole in his bench for his stomach if he drank good beer LMAO!!!!

That Outlaw is designed for theater type applications, pretty cool. Specs look good. I guess it gets down to sweetness and purity of the music presentation. All I can say is if you get a chance to hear a WOPL, you will have a shiteatin' grin on your face and headroom that will amaze you. I would trying out an Outlaw for sure!

 

[Funky54]

One last question... I think. B700 vs c-500

What would you go for? How do they sound compared to one another?

 

[Northwinds]

IIRC, the C-500 is very similar to the earlier Phase Linear models. I would naturally gravitate that way personally

B700 what? If you mean a first series Phase Linear 700 they are great amps, that's the rumored amp in a coffee can that Bob Carver took to the McIntosh clinic and the lights in the place went out when he started turning up the power. Only "bad" thing is that model PL cannot be made into a Full Comp model w/ WO components

The 700B is the true king of PL amps. Sure the D-500s were the most powerful but there is just something about the looks of a 700B... and once WO'd, puts out around 525wpc which is actually higher then the D-500. There is a wicked build thread over on Phoenix about a D-500 being fully restored and owned by grapplesaw

 

[gadget73]

Do you mean the 700B ? Thats the one that looks kinda like the 400 above, with the "symmetric" look. The original 700 had the meters pushed towards one side and a power control over on the left.

I've worked on a 700-II and I own a Pro 700. The Pro is basically the same as the -II except for the black faceplate. Same driver board, though mine is fully complimentary where my friend's was quasi-comp. Don't know that I could tell you any significant difference in sound without doing a back to back comparison but its probably nothing incredible.

Frankly I just do not love the sound mine makes. There isn't anything wrong with it, and it meets all it's various performance specs but if I listen for about 20 minutes I just want to turn it down. I wouldn't mind hearing a White Oak rig sometime just to see if that desire goes away. Frankly I'm just not a solid state guy though.

 

[Northwinds]

Here's an old warhorse 700 that still will blow you out of the house. Excuse it's appearance as it was a Aerosmith tour amp for many years yet still works and sounds awesome

 

[Funky54]

I did in fact mean 700b and not B700.... Let's call it dislexia or typing with big thumbs.

I'm still intrigued. Probably be a C-500, Pl400 or 700b. I just hope it's an improvement.

 

[Northwinds]

Gadget, the Pioneer PROII was designed for PRO use. A lot of people say the sweet PL sound disappeared with the PRO but they were owned by Pioneer by then (hence the Pioneer look and lettering style). I can't say, I never got to hear one

EDIT: I think the PRO has a steel chassis right? That's a damn good improvement right there because of the weight of the tranny!!

 

[Funky54]

Went with a C-500 for better or worst, I'm all in...

1) tri-wire and compare to outlaw 755
2) Bi amp with outlaw 755 on the bottom and carver on the top
3) buy a second C-500 and run me like mono blocks

If redundant sorry. I put this into three threads so non are left with out some closure.