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Carver/Sunfire

MikE

MikE

Color Me Gone
Could someone explain the Carver / Sunfire relationship. I know who Bob Carver is but what is Sunfire? How are they associated? And is Carver still in production today? Finally, what is your impression of the product? They usually get dreadful reviews. What is your experience, reliable or built to burn? Thanks

MikE

p.s. No, I'm not thinking about ditching the Moth and going SS. Someone just asked me about it.
 
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It's all Bob Carver. There was Phase Linear and then Carver. He sold Carver to some Japanese firm that tried to make it mass market and drove it into the ground. When the stock hit $0.05 a share, Bob bought the company back. While he was away from Carver he started Sunfire Labs where he could focus on niche high end gear. Carver is now housed in the same facility as Sunfire in Washington state. They have dropped all the Carver stuff and now are using Carver as their home theater line. At present they only have the one receiver.

Personally I like the Carver TFM series of amps and the laster A series. I run a A760x and A500x in my home theater. Traded my TFM-35 for some Bello racks. These amps are high current and can handle tough loads. The A760x is good down to one ohm and the A500x down to two ohms.
 
Not to confuse the issue, "Phase Linear" went through some iterations after Bob was forced out and seems to be only car audio now. "Carver Professional" was from Bob, but the name belongs to someone else now, and they make some dang good pro gear, including a new digital amp series that is the bomb. Guys over at AA writing reviews really have gone ape over those new digital amps-- tube guys giving up tubes kinda ape.
I have a nice, NIB Phase Linear car amp here, if someone would like one cheap ....
 
One thing that really impressed me about Bob Carver. Aside from being near enough the last real interesting character in audio, he has proven to be an honourable man. I was very surprised to find out that when he bought back his Carver corporation out of near bankruptcy, instead of using the courts to screw the creditors, he actually PERSONALLY paid back all the money, or at least negotiated equitable settlements with all the creditors of the Carver Corporation. Especially cool when one considers that he was not even involved with the company when it was being run into the ground. He just felt that any company with his name on the door should do the right thing. Amazing
Erik
 
I am not that impressed with current Carver products. Five years ago I owned a Reference Lightstar amp which was amazing. I sold it because it is too heavy for me (72 lbs). Recently I just bought a used TFM15cb. While its sound is decent, built quality is lousy. The meter lights are both gone. One meter has needle stuck. This is not the case with older Carver such as the Reference. I think Carver is getting big and is very sensitive with cost on manufacturing. It won't surprise me if one day they decide to move the whole production line to China :o :eek:
 
TFM amps

Personally, I think Carver stuff gets a bad rap because BC is sometimes a little too smart for his own good. Its led him down a few dead ends (CD time doodad).

I've heard that the TFM amps built in Korea were pretty crappy. Mine was a MOK and besides the problems I had with the blown outputs, she had a ton of bad solder joints up near the front of the chassis. I don't think it was due to heat - just poor solder QC.

IME Its easy to criticize poor solder work but keeping a wave soldering machine running is anything but easy. Not a job for the clowns we had running it (at least when I was working QC).
 
Originally posted by hotgas
I am not that impressed with current Carver products. Five years ago I owned a Reference Lightstar amp which was amazing. I sold it because it is too heavy for me (72 lbs). Recently I just bought a used TFM15cb. While its sound is decent, built quality is lousy. The meter lights are both gone. One meter has needle stuck. This is not the case with older Carver such as the Reference. I think Carver is getting big and is very sensitive with cost on manufacturing. It won't surprise me if one day they decide to move the whole production line to China :o :eek:
Click to expand...

Ok, well that particular model is from the bad old days at Carver. Just about the time they threw Bob out. It is NOT indicative of ANYTHING to do with the current Carver lineup. As was mentioned, the current Carver lineup is one model of Surround Sound receiver. Nice piece it is too. The real Carver stuff nowadays is all Sunfire. And it's not really fair to compare the quality of a mass-market, 2nd from the bottom of the line amp to their custom built, ultra high-end unit?
 
I owned a Carver ss7T for a while. Total peice of crap. It was supposed to have the sonic atributes of a tubed amp, but instead, it was a parody of one. The highs were rolled off, and the bass was the flabiest I ever heard from ANY amp i owned. After 6 months, it blew a power supply cap, so I got it fixed(under warranty). I eventually gave it away.
I also owned a sonic hologram generator. That parlour trick got old REAL fast.
jack
 
Gonzo,

I agree with you on solder quality crap that Carver has. I look into the TFM front and am shock with how they do the manual soldering, the choice of flimsy terminal posts, yellowish solder, etc. While hand soldering quality depends a lot on operator's experience, QC is everything in surface mount. I doubt if Carver has good QC in their product lines.

Bigeric,

And this should apply to high end unit also. How can Carver convince me that they have much better product at the high end if they don't have a good product at the mid-range or low-end? In term of quality, no matter how cheap or expensive products are, quality must be consistant throughout the products. Quality is always given. If a company adds more cost to a product to get the quality then there is something wrong with the company.
 
the case here is typical. a very good audio designer and all aroung good guy gets involved with the business side of things. he should have stuck with the design end of it and hired someone to run the business end. there could have been a good relasionship some where in the middle. you know you can't let the bean counters run everything and you can't let the designers run everything. company could have been around today designing and building great products in the usa for all of us. okay a just fell off the soapbox and i'm done
 
Originally posted by hotgas

... If a company adds more cost to a product to get the quality then there is something wrong with the company.
Click to expand...

Quality cost money. You can QC/QA a predetermined percentage based on a HALT - HASS testing or with substantial real time data, but you know at least one will get through to the customer. If this is part of your strategic road map, then you fix it in customer service.

You can choose to do 100% QC/QA and lower your customer support needs, but it will raise your production cost for sure. Yes, you can use AOI and X-ray with high upfront cost but you still need some manual inspection, where the level of expertise is associated with higher salaries . It all depends on what the product is, are lives at stake and your customer base.

Case in point, consumer goods cost less than military due to higher acceptance standards like Mil-Spec, ISO, etc...
 
If I'm not mistaken, the TFM-15, by the time that was introduced, Bob was all but gone from Carver.

Personally, I've owned, a dozen or so Carver products, amps, pre's and speakers. All in the neighborhood of 10-20 years old. I've had one bulb burn out on a Silver 9t mono amp and a triac switch replaced in an m1.5t.

Not too shabby, IMO.

BDT
 
"Quality cost money. You can QC/QA a predetermined percentage based on a HALT - HASS testing or with substantial real time data, but you know at least one will get through to the customer. If this is part of your strategic road map, then you fix it in customer service. "

Not necessarily so. If the company process is consistant, quality will add very little money in the final cost of product. HALT will help you design a product better. HASS will tell you what manufacturing process will need to be improved. Those add very little cost to the toatl cost of the product.

"You can choose to do 100% QC/QA and lower your customer support needs, but it will raise your production cost for sure. Yes, you can use AOI and X-ray with high upfront cost but you still need some manual inspection, where the level of expertise is associated with higher salaries . It all depends on what the product is, are lives at stake and your customer base."

You don't do 100% QA/QC because that is bandage and something is wrong with your process or design. I have plenty example of these.

"Case in point, consumer goods cost less than military due to higher acceptance standards like Mil-Spec, ISO, etc..."

That is not true. A lot of comsumer products utilize Mil specs, ISO, SPC, and still are much much cheaper than military. It is because consumer product use a lot of mass production (high volume) techniques such as automation, SMT (no thru hole), repetitive assembly technique, etc. The high cost of military product are due to bureaucracy, low volume, manual labor, high labor cost, etc.
 
Sorry but I disagree on 100% testing. From satellites to pacemakers, it is a requirement, because failure is quit costly. How would you like to be the guy who got the pacemaker that wasn't tested?

I know these are extremes but there are industries and products that require this level of testing. My company for one, does 100% testing during production and post production. Is our stuff flawed, no. For us failure is not an option and we are always looking for anything that might cause a failure in the field now or in the future. I just had production scrap over a million dollars worth of populated boards due to a possible failue attributed to the manufacture of the PCB's. I won't take the chance and don't expect my customers to either.

Which brings us back to products and customers. When you're talking a piece of audio gear and some guy listening to music at home, it's just not that critical. It breaks and you fix it or send him a new one. I don't expect clean room quality in a consumer mass market piece of gear. Quality that high would price you out of the market. As for me, I think we live in an increasingly disposable society. Where manufacurers make it really cheap and dont' expect you to fix it, you just buy another one.
 
I believe we are discussing audio or similar products which require certain level of QA/QC. In your examples they are rather special thus may be exceptions because we are talking about human lives or only a handful of production units.
 
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