Channel separation

[loudnoises]

Listening to a Stanton 750, claims 27db. Sounds a bit better than the shures in that regard.

What's the ceiling? Does 30db sound that much better?

Did anyone ever make a split cantilever system that played traditional lps? Or maybe a dual needle setup with one channel delayed?

 

[Coshac333]

Listening to a Stanton 750, claims 27db. Sounds a bit better than the shures in that regard.

What's the ceiling? Does 30db sound that much better?

Did anyone ever make a split cantilever system that played traditional lps? Or maybe a dual needle setup with one channel delayed?

human hearing does not distinguish the difference of 2 dB, and 3 dB is on the line of the possible. And the separation in the technical characteristics of the cartridges is indicated at a frequency of 1 kHz, where this indicator is maximum, and at higher frequencies, the separation drops to 16-18 dB for all cartridges. Therefore, the manufacturers were cunning and indicated the maximum possible figure.

 

[tabarddn51]

The best you can get as far as I know is a 40dB VDH, however it's not about fugues that make a wonderful sound-stage. It's about the compatibility & quality of your arm that will allow your cartridge to deliver the sound-stage. Together with a deck that has extremely low speed variation & Wow.
I run a re-tipped & upgraded Ort MC25FL on a Temaad 12.5'' tonearm. The separation figure of only 25dB, however in my system with several LP's I have the sound stage climb down the sides of the walls

Cheers

 

[cafe latte]

The best you can get as far as I know is a 40dB VDH, however it's not about fugues that make a wonderful sound-stage. It's about the compatibility & quality of your arm that will allow your cartridge to deliver the sound-stage. Together with a deck that has extremely low speed variation & Wow.
I run a re-tipped & upgraded Ort MC25FL on a Temaad 12.5'' tonearm. The separation figure of only 25dB, however in my system with several LP's I have the sound stage climb down the sides of the walls

Cheers

It is worth mentioning that many of these claimed figures are false. Stanton 881 and 681 measure really well and are up in the mid 30's also Grado I have measured close to 40 dB separation. THat said I have measured a few of a very well renowned Japanese cart that is supposed to be 35dB but in real measurements it is less than 25dB, this sort of thing is common.
Chris

 

[TobascoKid]

Ignored is broadband separation.

Minimum is the best they tell us: only ‘xx’ dB separation at 1kHz. The other 99%, the remaining octaves, are mysteries.

On a chart; separation can look like a flat plateau, tall mountain, a series of mountains with sharp peaks or something in-between.

The ones with high plateaus sound amazing. So smooth and airy. Those are the ones I aim for. Kind of rare.

17dB is the minimum separation for stereo. Even if their separation is minimum, if consistent then they can be fantastic cartridges. Their design and assembly also count. And if they lower cartridge output then they have a much better chance of more separation with less distortions.

 

[patient_ot]

You are much more likely to notice differences in the frequency response curve, especially if they are substantial, rather than a 2-3dB difference in stereo separation.

 

[Mr Boochie]

Listening to a Stanton 750, claims 27db. Sounds a bit better than the shures in that regard.

What's the ceiling? Does 30db sound that much better?

Did anyone ever make a split cantilever system that played traditional lps? Or maybe a dual needle setup with one channel delayed?

I can usually tell the difference in separation (or maybe it's the sound stage?), between cartridges advertised with 30dB separation versus say 27dB.

 

[cafe latte]

I can usually tell the difference in separation (or maybe it's the sound stage?), between cartridges advertised with 30dB separation versus say 27dB.

You wont hear that, not the separation anyway, maybe other cart sounds. The human ear has trouble hearing anything over 25dB separation so no way can you hear difference between 27 and 30 you are hearing other cart aspects.
Chris

 

[Mr Boochie]

You wont hear that, not the separation anyway, maybe other cart sounds. The human ear has trouble hearing anything over 25dB separation so no way can you hear difference between 27 and 30 you are hearing other cart aspects.
Chris

I thought so. Though most of the cartridges which list 30dB or better separation, tend to have better 3D imaging. At least those carts from major manufacturers. I haven't own a truly boutique cartridge. Only heard a few at public audio shows, which tend to be to have much background noises, at times.

 

[loudnoises]

I thought so. Though most of the cartridges which list 30dB or better separation, tend to have better 3D imaging. At least those carts from major manufacturers. I haven't own a truly boutique cartridge. Only heard a few at public audio shows, which tend to be to have much background noises, at times.

So how does imaging relate to separation? Are they connected?

Thanks for all the replies, this is how I learn.

 

[Mr Boochie]

So how does imaging relate to separation? Are they connected?

Thanks for all the replies, this is how I learn.

Must relate in some complex way. The converse seems true. Carts with lower separation numbers seem to have less 3D imaging, in my experience.

 

[Mark 1234]

[QUOTE="Blewpernt, post: With inventions like the Fozgometer, there is now a compulsion to match separation readings by adjusting azimuth. So long as channel balance remains centered, there is probably no harm, but I do think it encourages people to possibly set up their cartridges with the diamond rotated one way or another in the groove. What’s most important is that the diamond be centered for even diamond wear. Separation has more to do with mechanical or physical azimuth of the cartridge than diamond azimuth."[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I also think the Fozgometer manual is a little misleading. It says to adjust the azimuth so each channel has separation readings as close as possible to each other but then goes on to say check the channel balance again as they go hand in hand.
One of my cartridges has readings of 31 and 40. If I make the separation even the balance goes off and the cartridge is severely tilted.

 

[cafe latte]

Could be, but I would submit that herein lies the difference between spec and measured separation. Most cartridges test higher than spec at 1000Hz and it’s quite possible that the 30dB rated cartridge might actually perform to 35dB while the 27dB spec cartridge might actually perform to 40dB.

Highest separation readings happen on older cartridges where the suspensions are broken in. Specs apply to brand new cartridges. If suspensions are tightened up again, separation often lowers again. So, you really don’t ever know what you’re hearing in terms of separation if you’re assuming the specs are telling you what you are hearing. If you are actually testing your cartridges, that’s one thing. But if you’re going from specs, that’s quite another.

Good point. Also though it could be the specs are nonsense. I test a lot of carts before they go out and many brand drastically exaggerate separation specs, Grado are as advertised and sometimes better, old Stanton too have plus 35dB separation, but a very expensive Japanese MC for example claims 35dB but the three examples I have measured just made 25dB and such exaggeration is not uncommon. Most though are 4-5 dB less not 10 like the Japanese example, but my point is just because the specs say it does not mean it is true sadly.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Must relate in some complex way. The converse seems true. Carts with lower separation numbers seem to have less 3D imaging, in my experience.

The widest most real cart I ever heard (I have two of them I like them so much) is a Decca Super Gold, separation is around 25-26dB at 1kHz which is poor compared to some, but as stated already music is not just 1k so possibly separation is higher in the rest of the range. Also I think there is more too what makes that 3d image than just separation numbers. Best example is a Grado or a Stanton 681 which are both 35dB plus separation and both sound lovely but only the Decca you are sitting on the front row of a concert with music everywhere. When I talk about Decca on threads best description is Decca are almost live, and all the rest are hifi. And this is with very average separation.
Not putting down Grado or Stanton before anyone chimes in I have several of both Stanton and Grado and love them for what they do well.
Cheers
Chris

 

[warrjon]

So how does imaging relate to separation? Are they connected?

Thanks for all the replies, this is how I learn.

That's a complex question because there are multiple variables that will effect imaging. Cart separation is probably low on the list. Distortion in the playback chain and room acoustics are IMO top of the list.

Distortion - I don't just mean distortion in the amplification this is important especially IMD. I am referring more to acoustic feedback in the TT. I recently moved my TT from the lounge room to a spare bedroom and hung it from bungee cord to isolate it from the environment which opened out the sound stage and improved spacial information. Even in my environment in the country with no traffic or people the difference was audible so in the city where there are multiple sources of vibrational feedback TT isolation is makes a large improvement to imaging.

I have a Stanton 881s that I have measured at 39dB +- 0.5dB for each channel and 0.4dB balance. The image and spacial information is very good. This required significant mods to the Technics tonearm and SP10mk2 to realize its full potential. There are too many variables between cartridges to say with absolute certainty that high separation in one cart is better than another.

 

[Mr Boochie]

The widest most real cart I ever heard (I have two of them I like them so much) is a Decca Super Gold, separation is around 25-26dB at 1kHz which is poor compared to some, but as stated already music is not just 1k so possibly separation is higher in the rest of the range. Also I think there is more too what makes that 3d image than just separation numbers. Best example is a Grado or a Stanton 681 which are both 35dB plus separation and both sound lovely but only the Decca you are sitting on the front row of a concert with music everywhere. When I talk about Decca on threads best description is Decca are almost live, and all the rest are hifi. And this is with very average separation.
Not putting down Grado or Stanton before anyone chimes in I have several of both Stanton and Grado and love them for what they do well.
Cheers
Chris

It's too bad there is no objective measure of sound staging, instrument/vocal imaging, and depth, for cartridges. I guess one just needs to keep trying various makes and models, until he/she finds one that meets their criteria. In my experience, imaging, separation of instruments, and depthare some of the major parameters which separate a good cart from a so-so one.