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Chinese guitars

^^ You are right for many reasons. I get a little heated about 1970's Norlin era Gibson after some of the seconds they foisted on the public. THere were a lot of good guitars in that era, but not what Gibson had stood for before. Fender had a similar issue with CBS because the company didn't really care about the products. But in that period some of the best silver faced stuff was made because the employees still gave a damn.

On another note, I do agree about forgery. Hence why I ordered mine with no logos. Gibson got testy in the 70's when the Japanese stuff became better than the US counterpart for less money. Which is why the "lawsuit" guitars are so highly sought after. C'mon though, a headstock is a silly point to belabor. Especially since Gibson had done so much in the past like the Trini Lopez.

Anyway I would cheerfully pay $1500 for a hand made bass in the wood I choose, that will sound the way I want. But now I can't do that here. So I am buying there.

But the Gibson seconds had a 2 stamped into the back of the headstock. If it didn't have that, it wasn't a second, it was just a badly made guitar. Anyone who sold the seconds as first quality should have been prosecuted.

I had an Ibanez lawsuit LP copy and it wasn't a Gibson, by any means. It looked good but the neck wasn't the same quality of wood, it was thin and whippy, the top was plywood and hollow, the rest of the body was only fair quality mahogany and the finish was thick poly of some kind. The pickups were OK but it really didn't sound like a Gibson, which I couldn't afford at the time, even though I worked at the music store where I bought it, at the time and we sold Gibson, too. I have to say that IMO, Gibson's quality was still better than Fender's, at the time.

As far as basses, I don't know what you prefer, but Lakland makes a great sounding and playing instrument and they can be had for less than $1500, IIRC.

Since you play bass, I thought you might like to experience this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_u35sHICjE

No, it's not me, or anyone I know.
 
But the Gibson seconds had a 2 stamped into the back of the headstock. If it didn't have that, it wasn't a second, it was just a badly made guitar. Anyone who sold the seconds as first quality should have been prosecuted.

I had an Ibanez lawsuit LP copy and it wasn't a Gibson, by any means. It looked good but the neck wasn't the same quality of wood, it was thin and whippy, the top was plywood and hollow, the rest of the body was only fair quality mahogany and the finish was thick poly of some kind. The pickups were OK but it really didn't sound like a Gibson, which I couldn't afford at the time, even though I worked at the music store where I bought it, at the time and we sold Gibson, too. I have to say that IMO, Gibson's quality was still better than Fender's, at the time.

As far as basses, I don't know what you prefer, but Lakland makes a great sounding and playing instrument and they can be had for less than $1500, IIRC.

Since you play bass, I thought you might like to experience this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_u35sHICjE

No, it's not me, or anyone I know.

My 1975 Gibson second has "BGN" stamped on the headstock, which I'm told translates to an employee sale only.

je
 
Isn't that short for "bargain"? :)

Pretty much - here's one quote I found:

Peg Head Markings other than Serial Numbers ("seconds")

Gibson often marked inferior quality guitars as "seconds", and sold them at a discount to dealers or employees. These markings were stamped into the wood on the back of the peghead. A "2" stamp is sometimes seen, designating a "second", which had some cosmetic flaw. If there is a serial number on the back of the peghead, the "2" is usually seen centered above or below it. Also sometimes stamped was "CULL", which is another designation of a second. Again, this stamp is seen on the back of the peghead. The worst Gibson reject is the "BGN" stamp, designating that instrument as a "bargain" guitar. These were only sold to employees at substantial discounts. This stamp is also seen on the back of the peghead. Sometimes the "BGN" is stamped vertically with the "N" below the "G" which is below the "B". BGN instruments weren't acceptable to Gibson as sellable to the public.
All second instruments are usually worth less than the same guitar that is not a second (given condition as the same). BGN instruments are worth less than a second instrument because these tend to have some fairly serious cosmetic flaw.
 
So...whatcha got for sale, Mister Tawny?

Nothing for now. Still working with manufacturers to find the best of the best. I plan on launching my own line eventually with a decent co-op of Chinese shops making instruments for me.

As far as seconds go, I was always irritated that Gibson let them out at all. That was such a short sighted attempt to make a few bucks when they should have thrown them away. I had a Grabber that literally came apart while playing it. It was not stamped BGS or SECOND (I have seen examples of both) but the serial # was finally indicative. I was displeased to say the least.
 
Hagstrom was a Swedish made guitar in the 60' 70'. Then they closed the shop. They just recently, maybe two or three years, opened again in China. Every piece of the guitar is made in house. The crafsmanship and attention to detail is beyond belief. They are a work of art. I have a USA fender Deluxe and a Hagstrom, if I had to put a price on the two taking quality,playability and tone into the equasion I would put 375.00 on the Fender USA deluxe and 1400.00 on the Hagstrom. That is just the oposite of what they cost. Hagstrom has a very flat radius neck and a very thin neck. It also has a man made wood for a fret board. With the radius and the wood on the neck, bending strings is so smooth, you can feel the differnce instantly. Here is a video of a Hagstrom Viking. Check it out and tell me that is a cheap sounding guitar. You probably will have chills down your spine before it's over. Watch the fingers when stretching!!! Oh. and you can set them up soooooooooooo low, notice in the video the very light touch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azci7D9pPEQ&feature=related
 
Louie, as I intimated in my other post, I have no problem with the quality of the current Asian instruments. Truth be known I have heard so much good about some of the stuff from Rondo that I'd love to get my hands on one of the higher end Agile LP copies but it isn't so easy being in Canada:no: They end up being expensive by the time they make it here. My gripe was with the scammers trying to pass off the fakes as real. I also agree to a point that the American made guitars are too pricey these days...I bought the 76 LPC in my avatar back in 80 for $400Cdn. Now that model comes from the custom shop for about 10x that much and I'd rather have the old one thanks very much. It's good to be an aging packrat!

J.R.
Once I discovered Rondo, I never looked back. I buy basses there on a fairly regular basis. A lot of them are eye candy for gigging. But they also sound good and play well. My wife even bought me one of those accoustic/electric mandolins for Christmas last year. Both the case and the instrument are great.

Half of gigging is stage presence. Being able to pull out all sorts of basses to fit the mood is a kick and the crowd loves it.

And I have bought several guitars there for children and grandchildren.

Only one is a "sort of lemon" I got a $129 six string bass that I had to modify to get to play well. The pickup is uneven but it was a great way to get into playing six string. Eventually I will get a better one - from Rondo.

Rondo does not work if you are brand conscious though.
 
I will prolly put together a bunch of manufacturers and perhaps set up a buying group to get lower prices. Buying less than 75 at a time isn't really cost effective. I find some of the freight companies are cheap with LTL container space. My last batch was only about $25 each for shipping.

I am getting other products from Pakistan (bag pipes) that are the same way. The quality is better than much of the Scot product for less than 1/4 the price. And they work to my specs.

I get some US gear made the same, but I do pay for it. My luthier charges me more to set up these guitars than I spend buying them. He is only spending 1 or 2 hours too. Maybe we need to rethink how we do business.

I suspect Herin is the reason you are so enamored with Asian instruments.
It IS a world economy and the U.S. HAS been left behind. Righteous indignation isnt enough these days.

Being somewhat of a semi pro musician I can tell you that the music isnt in the instrument anyway. I can adjust to make a Chinese plastisol dipped acoustic sound just as good as any other. Only instrument afficianado's can tell the difference with their eyes closed and better than 60% of them are merely wannabee musicians.

Whatever instrument it is, its a tool. What it looks like hanging on the wall makes no difference. A quality instrument will hold up under the constant and strict regimin of playing that a musician must maintain.

Initial quality is as deceiving in instruments as it is in auto's. Its how it holds up over time and use that counts and there is where the Chinese instruments fail. Just look in the pit of touring musicians to see this. Carbon Fibre instruments are everywhere now. Ive had one for a couple years now and there is no beating it in all aspects. ALL aspects. Roger Daltry would'v have a hard time with a CA. Made is the US by the way.

Its really apples and oranges. Pro's buy quality. When the local starving musician starts climbing, they put away the chinese "whatever" and get a quality instrument.

You are right. Chinese instruments are profitable.


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Being somewhat of a semi pro musician I can tell you that the music isnt in the instrument anyway. I can adjust to make a Chinese plastisol dipped acoustic sound just as good as any other. Only instrument afficianado's can tell the difference with their eyes closed and better than 60% of them are merely wannabee musicians.

Whatever instrument it is, its a tool. What it looks like hanging on the wall makes no difference. A quality instrument will hold up under the constant and strict regimin of playing that a musician must maintain.

Initial quality is as deceiving in instruments as it is in auto's. Its how it holds up over time and use that counts and there is where the Chinese instruments fail. Just look in the pit of touring musicians to see this. Carbon Fibre instruments are everywhere now. Ive had one for a couple years now and there is no beating it in all aspects. ALL aspects. Roger Daltry would'v have a hard time with a CA. Made is the US by the way.

Its really apples and oranges. Pro's buy quality. When the local starving musician starts climbing, they put away the chinese "whatever" and get a quality instrument.
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Like you, I'm "semi-pro" and agree with most of your post. However, I have also discovered that sometimes there is very little, if any, quality difference. Usually it is in the tuners or pickups, but those are a cheap swap out.

Meanwhile, I've done a lot of gigging with that bass in my avatar and it even fell out of a guitar stand onto an uncovered concrete floor. The headstock hit pretty hard. That was almost three years ago and other than a very small ding in the back of the body, you'd never know anything happened.

The bass cost me $139 and the Fender equivalent is roughly $2,400. I can buy a lot of tuning pegs for the difference. I've also played with quite a few guys that have had nothing but headaches with a Gibson, Gretch and Fender instruments. Problem is, there is really not that much going on in a solid body guitar/bass. The electronic technology is ancient and anybody good at woodworking can cut a body and neck. If the time is spent in the design of the instrument and the manufacturing process, one can make a quality instrument.

But the part of your post that I most strongly agree with is your comment that the instrument is a tool.

And as a performer, I know that it is not all about the sound I produce. If it was, the venue could just hire a dj. It is about stage presence, showmanship, etc. What you wear matters. The look of your instrument matters. That is why, in the concert scene in The Blues Brothers, during Minnie the moocher. the bass is white, but when the "dream sequence" is over, it is tobacco sunburst. It projects an image.

Sometimes I choose my instrument for a look. My six string is high gloss silver. My blue fretless uses black strings. Sometimes I pull out the acoustic/electric for the look alone. People comment on the looks of basses I use. They notice. Because of low cost instruments, I can have six or seven different basses with four, five or six strings that have a jazz, country or rock look/sound, and then pick the particular axe for the particular song I am playing when on stage. I usually only bring a maximum of three to a gig though.

If I bought name brand basses, I would have, maybe, two.

But about the tool thing again, one thing BAD about the chinese stuff is that it is not "legendary" stuff. Fact is, when you are playing something "expensive" you, the musician, notice it and enjoy playing more. That also matters.

So when I make it big, I'll go to name brands.

Slightly related - I've seen some really good bass players playing Cort and other "no name" basses, but I've been to quite a few blues jams and the number of guys with more money than talent playing exotic guitars and basses is legion.
 
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I'll stick with Heritage Guitars. They are made the traditional way, with the right people, and put out great instruments. Plus, the "heritage" of the 225 Parsons St. factory is also nice.

I like to keep my fellow citizens employed at their craft. A small price to pay for an instrument that will last a lifetime.

rooster.
 
RobRoy,
Here, Here. Thats a good point. especially about how you play better when you feel better about how you present yourself. Middle age guys like me that arent just now learning as part of their "crisis" are far between. Theres where the market is for the US Fenders, Gibsons, vintage collectable and such. I grew up in a musical family and have known many performers. My grandfather was one. So I guess Im lucky in that respect. Personally, I gave up the chase several years ago for commercial instruments and have made my own electrics, settled on one and Im finished. There isnt a commercial electric git made yet that suits me better. Flash, quality and plays itself. I was going to make my own accoustic also but I found the CA and since its virtually indestructable let the luthier idea fall away. I even make my own amps. In a round about way, thats how I found AK.

SRV didnt care. Willie Nelson dont care, and that hot thing in the front row dont care either.
Music and showmanship baby,
Shut up and play. Then maybe when we're done we'll go play again. :thmbsp:

On a more "this thread related note" The newer Guilds are sweet looking and sounding, completely chinese guitars. Only time and use will tell if they are really good but Gennie Guilds were never as sweet as they are now. Ah LA Fender via asia.

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rooster:

As the proud owner of a Heritage Eagle, I can certainly vouch for their quality...but I also own a Epiphone Masterbilt acoustic that was made in China...truly sick quality for $400. I also own a cheap Kramer strat knock-off (also made in China) that I bought from MusicYo.com for $79...yeah. the tuners and electronics weren't top-shelf, but it was ridiculously playable. I installed some Fender tuners, a bone nut and some pickups from a guy who makes nice Strat pickups in California, and for less than $300 I have a guitar that would kick a Mexican Strat's azz, IMO.

While I appreciate the sentiment to "buy American", and I do buy American when I feel that I am getting real value (like my Heritage Eagle or my Carr amps - handmade in North Carolina), there is zero reason to overpay for some of the crap that Gibson has putting out in recent years. I own an Epiphone Elite Les Paul - made at the Fuji Gen Gakki guitar facility in Japan - in every way this guitar is as good or better than the non-Custom Shop or Historic Les Pauls that Gibson is selling for $2000-$2500...great woods, a long tenon neck (something that you have to step up to CS or Historics to get), a bone nut, Grover Rotosound tuners, Gibson USA-made pickups...fantastic fit and finish (although they use a thin poly finish versus a nitro finish).

A great guitar...made at a world-class facility...for HALF the price of your run-of-the-mill Gibson Les Paul Standard.

Now...why would I pay 2x the price of the Elite for the Gibson?

Because it's a better guitar? Nope.

Because it has better quality materials and construction? Nope.

Because of the name on the headstock? Well...if it floats your boat...

I recognize that there is a value in purchasing American goods. I really do. And where the price/value equation is close, it is a tiebreaker for me. I own a ton of US made stuff...built by guys who do it right...Carr amps...Avatar speaker cabinets...my beloved Heritage Eagle...even my Gibson J-100 jumbo acoustic (although I had to pay $150 for neck work and a fret job...on a FREAKING NEW GUITAR!!!). I also understand that there are structural/economic reasons why manufacturers in China, the Far East and other parts of the world can undercut the cost of manufacturing things in the USA, and that it is not a fair playing field at times for the USA guys to compete. But there are also too many examples of industries (like the auto industry) where consumers will pay the same amount of money - or even more money - to purchase a non-US product because the US product simply is not as good...or not even close.

I did not want this to devolve into a political discussion. Sorry about that.
 
Just my 2 cents from a long time player. I have Real guitars,Ric,Gibson.Fender,
and 2 Peavey T-60's. I don't used them anymore because I fear damaging then and decreasing their value. A few years ago I purchased 2 Jay Turser
Les Paul copies and with minimum setup they have been my main axes in recording and playing out. Ed
 
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The thing that is driving me nuts is all the new guitars that my friends are getting need work just to be playable and my 40+ year old Lero (Japanese plywood holowbody) needs hardly anything (other than being put back together since it was taken apart when I got it, but that was just the bridge, tail stock,pickups and electronics, haven't touched the neck or tuning pegs or anything). My early 90's Squire Strat is great too (just got dropped the other day onto a concrete floor when they strap let go and survived that with nothing more than a big chip). My friend bought his sister a new Squire Strat and the bridge is crap, the nut is to short, the neck is bowed back and it was unplayable out of the box. Same thing with the Squire MB-4 bass he bought (although his Rogue bass was a lot worse, that thing was a POS).

I am learning more about guitars just making his playable than I ever thought I would know.
 
Proffit Margin, gentlemen. That is what is all about, Fender makes em in Mexico,Tiawan,Gibson makes em in China, you want to pay 1700.00 for a Fender deluxe, your choice. If it makes you feel better,great. Probably the Made in USA decal was made in Tiawan. Harley Davidson has been playing these cards for years. Play like Thorpe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azci7...eature=related and I'll come get lost in the music and watch your fingers all night, weather they are on an American Strat or a Chinese Hagstrom. As he says, when asked who are your influences, "All guitar players that do it with feeling". He didn't say any American Fender or Gibson player.
 
Let me give a couple examples of the attributes of a quality guitar.

When your drummer wont tone it down and you toss your guitar on its stand in disgust over and over then pick it up each time and it plays the same.

When its fallen over 100 times and its not destroyed.

When you forgot to loosen the strings and it flew to Montreal in the cargo hold of a jet in January then played perfectly the next night.

When you found it in the attic in Arkansas where its been living for the past 50 years and only the laquer is frazzled.

When it survives a party with at least 5 drunk wannabees picking it up and trying to play stairway to heaven.

When your toddler son wants to see how many glasses of apple juice it takes to fill it up and later when picking it up from the luthier, it only needed a cleanup.

After a string change it gets four incrimental adjustments and doesnt need tuned again for a month. Then hardly ever.

A few...... not, quality attributes of a guitar.

How it holds up after a session of "poser" in front of the mirror.

Having to tune it everytime you pick it up.

How good it looks after stroking and polishing it

How many you can buy for $500

After 2 years the action has gotten so high its better suited to slide than rythm.

When it falls over and only a luthier can save it.

When an extreme temp change means it must now be strung backwards and played lefty for the rest of its life.

When the guitar makes you look good and the music is secondary.

When you wonder what happened to all those cool old Chinese guitars you used to like way back when......


..
 
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