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Class D really not so great

I review cars, I don't really drive them, but I look to see what the horsepower, gear ratios and such are and then I tell you how they drive...

BTW if I ever do drive them, I just say one drives better than another without data.
Ed Long could usually predict the performance of a loudspeaker from FFT waterfall test data, a test that correlates to real world experience. One of the few examples of this.
Cars that look good on paper and in person may be less than ideal drivers in practice, the just-right "goldilocks" drivers may not be that impressive otherwise.
 
Should I use an equalizer in my system?

Sure go ahead and use one. :thumbsup:

WRT using one to "fix" my system, I will find other ways, thanks.
WRT using one to "fix" subpar recordings, just the thought of adjusting an EQ that much makes me tired, no way would I actually physically do it.

JMO, YMMV, etc. :)
 
But I can still enjoy listening to the music on the bad recording (with Class D, A, A/B, or tubes). :thumbsup:

Like the other day in kitchen - listening to a fabulous performance of Tchaikovsky over streamer + Class D amp...you could tell it was an older recording from 60's, but music didn't care that it was getting amplified via small class D (bought because of size - about as big as Alexa) .. it was the performance that I enjoyed ...
 
I'm going to use one of the Crown amps I have as a subwoofer amp since it had DSP built in. I may use two of them bridged.
 
I was given three of the Crown CDi-1000 amps. They sound pretty damn good and are so much easier to lug around. These are 275w into 8 ohms, 500w into 4 ohms and can be bridged. I can grab one with one hand. On the other end, I have a couple 125w tube mono blocks that weigh in at around 38lbs each! The Crown CDi specs are pretty good also.


I have a Crown CDi-4000 and I tried it in my 2 amp system that uses an active crossover, it was taking the spot of 1 of my old 1985 QSC 3500 amps for the low end. The QSC is AB rated at 450w x2 @ 4 ohms and 900w x2 @ 2 ohms (1800w x2 @1 ohm if you can supply a 40A 120VAC circuit), I'm pretty sure I'm running a 3 ohm load so that's about 600w x2 and my gain is set less than half way. The crown is rated for 1200w x2 at 4 ohms, it also has a 2 ohm rating (I think it's 1800w x2) so 3 ohms should generate 1500w x2. I listen at realistic sound levels, meaning if the recording has people talking, it's at talking level, so I'm not really stressing either amp.

I couldn't get the crown to even sound correct, the gain was nearly maxed and I wasn't even close to the output of the QSC. I had to add on some XTR adaptors that changed it to bare wire ends to connect, I rechecked all wiring, saw no problems.
The p does it's self test upon start up and it's all good, then there's that damn DSP built in and it's the stupidest configuration to adjust or try to turn off completely.

After 20 seconds I disconnected it and posted it for sale for about what I paid for it. I think they have joined the max output club for their power ratings, 1200 is actually 300? Even so 1800w max should still be about the same as the QSC's real output.

But that's not the only class D or similar (H or some other letter down the alphabet) I have on hand right now, I also have 2 peaveys and both are the same way. Claiming 450W x2 @ 4 ohms but maxed can't come close the the QSC at ⅓rd input (that's with just the 1st light flickering) the Ds have all lights lighted and the sound is distorted and bass output is rolled off on the deepest tones.

Both of those amps are still being made and sold new, they're not some of the 1st attempts or anything like that and they still fail miserably in a high quality system. No noise from the QSC but once you kick gains up maxed on the Ds you can hear some faint humming.

I tried the other Peavey which is an older H I think, IPR 1600, to run my high end and the same thing happened, couldn't even get the level matched with my low end and it sounded awful. All of the amps work perfectly so I can only base my judgement on what I have tested.

The 1600 has 3 LED segments and it was flickering the last one and still wasn't even close to the QSC at just under half gain with 1 led flickering. My old Peavey 400s (tanks weighing over 40lbs) will do better with only 200w x2 than those digital lightweights can.

Plus my QSCs use no fans, all digitals have 2 fans and they let you know it, the crown did not run it's fans after start up test so that's at least 1 good thing. The digital peaveys are loud.
I also have a cheap Chinese class D that claims 2000w but it's probably closer to 100w x2 it's about the same as the old Peavey 400s but bass is rolled off at the low end. But it sounds ok when used as a tweeter amp just not enough power to keep us with the bass. All LED s are lit steady but it doesn't get hot or distort, it's on par with an old Samson servo 120a (AB) that I sold, it was only 60w x2 @ 4 ohms but it was air cooled, that's why i kept it around.

Now I have 5 BGW A150s made in late 70s way 80s with 75w x2 at 8 ohms and 125wx2@4, I can max them out and get no distortion and they're on par with the digital amps. They are also air cooled and run both high and low very well, just don't have the power needed to reach realistic levels. They can be bridged but I haven't tested them bridged yet. They're very nice sounding, so I think they'll do just fine. They are better than any digital amps I've tried so far, plus they play 5-20kHz without roll off.

So I have to agree with OP based on my own real world testing without looking at specs, I would never have guessed the digital amps put out more than 250w no matter who made it. Disappointed is the best way to describe my experience.
 
ASR is a great resource :rolleyes:
Having spent a career operating, maintaining (testing often) and repairing sound production, transmitting, receiving, processing, recording and playback gears I got banded a few yrs back for asking detailed questions about ASR's testing set ups. Apparently relevant questions about procedure are taboo :)

But hey, apparently Amir has recommended 36% of the gear he has tested. Not sure why that metric matters :idea:


Most of the testing done there is irrelevant, I have wondered why he even bothers with the tests he does. None of them can display how it sounds and watts mean little unless they're running a speaker as the load?

I'm not afraid to jump in and question why he does things like he does, especially since I know hes backed by Samsung! I bash Samsung on a regular bases for being the shadiest company that ever existed. Everything they make has a built in recording feature that transmits info back to their headquarters and once that memory is full, that piece stops working. They make stuff to spy and has a built in end of life too.

I believe that Samsung has a fear or is allergic to metal, yoaru won't find much of it in anything they make. He didn't like it when I posted these Samsung notes explaining how Samsung has created a new way of thinking when it comes to making products, complete opposite of how a company should think. Now that same "screw'em" attitude has been adopted by just about every big company. They have destroyed consumer goods forever by making everything break at a set time.
 
Most of the testing done there is irrelevant, I have wondered why he even bothers with the tests he does. None of them can display how it sounds and watts mean little unless they're running a speaker as the load?

I'm not afraid to jump in and question why he does things like he does, especially since I know hes backed by Samsung! I bash Samsung on a regular bases for being the shadiest company that ever existed. Everything they make has a built in recording feature that transmits info back to their headquarters and once that memory is full, that piece stops working. They make stuff to spy and has a built in end of life too.

I believe that Samsung has a fear or is allergic to metal, yoaru won't find much of it in anything they make. He didn't like it when I posted these Samsung notes explaining how Samsung has created a new way of thinking when it comes to making products, complete opposite of how a company should think. Now that same "screw'em" attitude has been adopted by just about every big company. They have destroyed consumer goods forever by making everything break at a set time.
THIS
 
I have heard good and not so good class D amps (just like all other types), but this is the first I remember seeing anyone complaining about their use as bass amps or their output power.
Looking at Stereophile measurements of class D amplifiers they meet or exceed their specs (at 1% used for all amp tests), a class D NAD rated at 620W x 1 into 8 ohms bridged mode was measured at 980 watts.

The Crown XLS class D amps I have owned had no problems with bass or power.
 
I bash Samsung on a regular bases for being the shadiest company that ever existed. Everything they make has a built in recording feature that transmits info back to their headquarters and once that memory is full, that piece stops working. They make stuff to spy and has a built in end of life too.

That's pretty impressive given most of the stuff they make has no connection to the outside world.
 
I have a Crown CDi-4000 and I tried it in my 2 amp system that uses an active crossover, it was taking the spot of 1 of my old 1985 QSC 3500 amps for the low end. The QSC is AB rated at 450w x2 @ 4 ohms and 900w x2 @ 2 ohms (1800w x2 @1 ohm if you can supply a 40A 120VAC circuit), I'm pretty sure I'm running a 3 ohm load so that's about 600w x2 and my gain is set less than half way. The crown is rated for 1200w x2 at 4 ohms, it also has a 2 ohm rating (I think it's 1800w x2) so 3 ohms should generate 1500w x2. I listen at realistic sound levels, meaning if the recording has people talking, it's at talking level, so I'm not really stressing either amp.

I couldn't get the crown to even sound correct, the gain was nearly maxed and I wasn't even close to the output of the QSC. I had to add on some XTR adaptors that changed it to bare wire ends to connect, I rechecked all wiring, saw no problems.
The p does it's self test upon start up and it's all good, then there's that damn DSP built in and it's the stupidest configuration to adjust or try to turn off completely.

After 20 seconds I disconnected it and posted it for sale for about what I paid for it. I think they have joined the max output club for their power ratings, 1200 is actually 300? Even so 1800w max should still be about the same as the QSC's real output.

But that's not the only class D or similar (H or some other letter down the alphabet) I have on hand right now, I also have 2 peaveys and both are the same way. Claiming 450W x2 @ 4 ohms but maxed can't come close the the QSC at ⅓rd input (that's with just the 1st light flickering) the Ds have all lights lighted and the sound is distorted and bass output is rolled off on the deepest tones.

Both of those amps are still being made and sold new, they're not some of the 1st attempts or anything like that and they still fail miserably in a high quality system. No noise from the QSC but once you kick gains up maxed on the Ds you can hear some faint humming.

I tried the other Peavey which is an older H I think, IPR 1600, to run my high end and the same thing happened, couldn't even get the level matched with my low end and it sounded awful. All of the amps work perfectly so I can only base my judgement on what I have tested.

The 1600 has 3 LED segments and it was flickering the last one and still wasn't even close to the QSC at just under half gain with 1 led flickering. My old Peavey 400s (tanks weighing over 40lbs) will do better with only 200w x2 than those digital lightweights can.

Plus my QSCs use no fans, all digitals have 2 fans and they let you know it, the crown did not run it's fans after start up test so that's at least 1 good thing. The digital peaveys are loud.
I also have a cheap Chinese class D that claims 2000w but it's probably closer to 100w x2 it's about the same as the old Peavey 400s but bass is rolled off at the low end. But it sounds ok when used as a tweeter amp just not enough power to keep us with the bass. All LED s are lit steady but it doesn't get hot or distort, it's on par with an old Samson servo 120a (AB) that I sold, it was only 60w x2 @ 4 ohms but it was air cooled, that's why i kept it around.

Now I have 5 BGW A150s made in late 70s way 80s with 75w x2 at 8 ohms and 125wx2@4, I can max them out and get no distortion and they're on par with the digital amps. They are also air cooled and run both high and low very well, just don't have the power needed to reach realistic levels. They can be bridged but I haven't tested them bridged yet. They're very nice sounding, so I think they'll do just fine. They are better than any digital amps I've tried so far, plus they play 5-20kHz without roll off.

So I have to agree with OP based on my own real world testing without looking at specs, I would never have guessed the digital amps put out more than 250w no matter who made it. Disappointed is the best way to describe my experience.
I didn't have any problems with turning g the DSP off. I did try one in a two channel system. While it's sounds pretty good with plenty of low end impact, it's a bit dry sounding. But for sub duty it should work out well. These are a little different, a variation of a class D driving a discrete output stage. I took two of them and made a slight modification to them. I removed the Phoenix connectors and installed unbalanced RCA jacks for the input. I used a standoff to set the small PCB out enough to clear the back end of the jacks. It just makes it easier for two channel home use. I gave one to my son to use in his garage system.
Its connected to a tube preamp I built. The tube preamp did smooth out the overall tone of the amp. I couldn't complain for getting all three for free.
 
Ziinda is confusing amplifier sensitivity with output drive and amplifier gain statistics...

The QSC amps are 1 V input for full rated power, the Crown is 1.4 V for full rated output, a bit of a difference there...what's that, 40%?
I don't feel like going through conversion to decibels to drag this any farther.

So, yeah, you have to drive the Crowns harder to get them to make the same output.
 
It's actually better to run an amp without as much attenuation...use the upstream line controller/preamp do all the volume control and run the amp WFO.
 
Measuring and testing can be subjective depending upon how you perform the test.... there is a review of the Parasound JC2 preamp done on another site where Amirm used the totally wrong input voltage then said the unit measured bad and must suck (he obviously never listened to one, they are glorious):

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/parasound-jc2-preamplifier-review.14779/

Here is a small excerpt from a response telling Amirm that his testing was full of schizz:

"The preamplifier has a rated output of 1V and is clearly designed to achieve its lowest THD at levels typical for power amplifier sensitivities of 1-2V (as was/is the norm). The Stereophile plots also show this to be perfectly true. You are testing it at 4V, 4 times its rated specification. Of course the THD rises at 400% of rated spec. Specification is 200mV for 1V out. You are feeding in 4V. 20 times its rated sensitivity for full rated output. A CD at full level is 2V.

So, if it tests bad but sounds good to you, then it SOUNDS GOOD


 
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