Classical and vinyl

[vmartell]

Classical vinyl of course!

Not sure if the title conveys my point - you will probably think that I am an idiot, stupid, or both... but needed to get it off my chest and put it out there - maybe I will get some help from the wise women/men of this group - long post, though, as I am a natural rambler...

1) Background... My love for Classical Music is tied to the CD/Digital era... Just around the time that CD came out, I started understanding and loving classical Music... so I went with it - my first Classical CD was Herbie's LvB 9th... the late 70s one.. anyways... so I continued to build my classical CD collection from there... of course, at the same time, started to replace my ~1.8K very badly maintained LP (no classical in there) - So, my Classical CD collection grew to ~1OK CDs during the course of a couple of decades - at the same time, my popular music collection has shrunk and expanded - mostly shrunk... as my love for popular music has lessened...

2) Like I said... a couple decades later, vinyl is back... got curious, got my tables, etc... same time Jazz finally clicked, so for me, vinyl revival == Jazz discovery... with a few, mostly prog rock vinyl items for nostalgia sake... pretty happy...

3) Naturally, of course, had to try Classical vinyl... and this is the gist of my post:

- For whatever reason, new classical vinyl is less available than new jazz or prog vinyl.. yes there is some out there, a bit on the expensive side... so most of my experience is with used classical vinyl

- CAN'T LISTEN TO THEM! :tears: - I mean, I am a reasonable man... don't expect digital silence... but every pop, click and surface noise just gets amplified when listening to classical! Those silences.... those delicate parts... etc are just killed by the presence of pops, clicks, etc... it just kills the experience... maybe I am too used to digital silence...

- Why doesn't it bother me in jazz and/or rock? I have a theory: it is simple... those sounds (pops, clicks, surface noise, including scratch, etc) occupy more or less the same sonic space as the typical pop instrumentation... especially the drums... so they are masked... and the to the brain, well, it just melts into a whole... only a theory, but that is my experience...

- Admittedly, I believe that I may have a cleaning problem... I do believe that using my spin clean introduces new pops and clicks and noise to the record... and I am working to try to solve the problem... that said, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL... the problem affects classical and jazz/rock records the same... is just that on jazz/rock records, the problem above can even be ignored for reasons stated in my theory... while on a classical record, the same problem effectively kills the record for me... becomes unlistenable...

- As a test, risked my stylus and got some used classical records, did not apply the spin clean... still... well... yes, no NEW, Spin Clean induced pops, clicks, etc.. but what was there, still made for base classical music... still killed the experience.. is just that spin cleaning just exacerbates the situation...

- As of 10 mins ago, I said ENOUGH... no more used classical records until I solve my cleaning problem... I will probably ditch the spin clean and switch to an RCM, with the hope that with that will get nearer to reasonably silent records... but in the meantime, no more used classical records

- Will also get a new classical pressing.. see how that works... maybe I can develop a new policy of only new classical vinyl, at least until I solve my cleaning problem

SO QUESTIONS TO THE GROUP:

Is this your experience? Is your experience far off from this? How do you deal with it? Or is all your classical vinyl, used or new, silent enough for listening? Any tips for classical vinyl (beyond effective cleaning) Anyone with same Spin Clean issue?

* Note:
* When I say jazz/rock, mean the two styles, not fusion!

Sorry for the long post and thnx in advance

V

 

[guiller]

SO QUESTIONS TO THE GROUP:

Is this your experience? Is your experience far off from this? How do you deal with it? Or is all your classical vinyl, used or new, silent enough for listening? Any tips for classical vinyl (beyond effective cleaning) Anyone with same Spin Clean issue?

I listen to classical music only. Your experience is very far from mine, as noises are not an issue for me in new or used but cleaned LPs. Nowdays I've got a Clearaudio RCM that does a superb job in cleaning my records, but in the 70's and 80's I used a Discwasher set + Zerostat gun and kept noises down to a minimum. I would suggest that you check your cleaning procedures and verify the amount of static electricity present in your records (perhaps a humidifier could help?).

 

[jhtstone]

My experience is a full 180 degrees from yours.

The reason for getting back into vinyl was for the classical music. This genre comprises 80% of the vinyl that I own and almost all of what I listen to.

I was fortunate enough to return to the medium before the market began to dry up but still find the occasional group of solid performers. It is a pleasure to take out a record that is, perhaps, 40 years old and drop the needle. I do not buy classical unless it is as close to mint as visually possible and never sight unseen. I had to invest in decent mid-level equipment to find satisfaction with the playback but that was understood. I don't have an RCM but would like to get one. The major problem now is simply static in the winter months but that has been a minimum.

Perfect sound? No, but my ears are not either and the good side of the sound far outweighs the small imperfections that I can hear.

 

[davidro]

I listen to classical mainly, but some other stuff too.

It is definitely easier to become sensitive about the noises with the classical. I think this is what led an AKer Mr Lin not to like the classical vinyl too much at some stage.

There's nothing to cure this other than the proper cleaning.

 

[kcblair]

I'm or was mainly into Rock, KISS, AC/DC Motley Crue and the like. Once I learned (from AK) how to set up a TT, cartridge aliment and most important, speaker arrangement , I started listening to Jazz. All forms, acoustical , Fusion, contemporary , modern, I was drawn into the music. Now my Jazz collective way out numbers my Rock collection. Then I started to try out Classical. I started with the $1 bin at some of my local used record stores. Records where clean, unscratched . I started to get drawn into this genre. Some of the albums I liked, some not. I now nothing about Classical. But, my vintage system was drawing my in. I learned early on, cleaning records is veeeery important. I bought an RCM. My favorite, Overture of 1812 was $2 and sounds terrific . I have some piano concerto's that were $2 , some were dirty from sitting around for God knows how long. Once or twice through the RCM, maybe a small tick (from a scratch I didn't notice) , crisp as a CD.

My favorite cartridge Grado Black + 8MZ stylus, followed by a Pickering XV-15 and Shure M91ED. No IGD, No Grado dance, nothing,

Bottom line, inspect records for scratches, setup TT and speakers , most importantly, a RCM. I used to hand wash my records, but an RCM made them new . You can't control groove damage, that's the nature of old , used records. Both my record shops have a TT so I can listen for damage. Lately, I've been getting my Classical "fix" from my fav seller. $2-3 a pop, it's worth checking out the genre , now.

I'm sure other AKer's will chime in. Enjoy

 

[Bob in WI]

My spinclean made a noticable improvement in the sound of my vinyl - all genres. I added a Kabusa vacuum so now I spinclean, then vacuum. Seems to work nicely. No suprise that you would notice clicks & pops on music that has softer/ quieter sections. Agree with above posters who suspect static, especially during the heating season. Good luck, you'll get it sorted out.

 

[kcblair]

Yep, bought a humidifier for my cellar this year. Seems in the winter, it get down to 40% now I keep it at 50%.

 

[3kitty]

Hey V - sorry for your frustrating experience with classical albums but like others here my experience is the exact opposite.

I have ZERO new classical records - all purchased used.
I have an extreme sensitivity to noise on playback - quiet play vinyl is king to me!!

I am picky/careful with what I buy...NM or better if I can. I have been fortunate to purchase some of my classical music from classical collectors themselves who purchased this vinyl new back in the day and have taken terrific care of it.

I also keep an eye out for certain labels/pressings and that also makes a difference in the quality of recording...like any genre I suppose. Telefunken, Decca, etc

As for cleaning I do not even use a Spin Clean....I use a very thorough sink method and have excellent success/results with it.

I have also found and established a very good relationship with a vendor on Discogs who is an avid classical collector himself and is EXTREMELY reputable as far as grading/ customer service , etc. So having someone I trust benefits me as well.

All the best in finding new or "old" classical music that is silent and enjoyable for you!!

 

[VintageVibe]

Hi V, my timeline is similar to yours. My last good classical vinyl buys came in the late '80's, and then everything was CD for the next twenty years. Now it's vinyl exclusively unless there is no other option. I cherish those digitally recorded DG and London albums.

As for clicks and pops, it's not limited to just classical of course. Some of my favorite album's in all genres that I've kept in immaculate condition can still wind up with a mysterious pop or click during the best quiet passage of the song. What drives me crazy is how they got there. If the mood strikes me it's off the table and into the sink for a cleaning. Otherwise, I'll get it next time and consider it the noise I might hear during a concert. Chairs move, people cough or sneeze, and of course the ever present cell phone ringing.

The interesting thing is that most used classical or jazz vinyl are typically more gently used than rock albums.

For new classical vinyl try: http://www.soundstagedirect.com/classical.shtml

 

[Ken Boyd]

You probably won't be able to get use to the annoying pops and clicks, you should look for good quality CD's they are dead quite.

 

[vmartell]

Thnx everyone for your kind replies

1) I definitely have a cleaning problem - the source for most of my classical records is a good one I think - cosmetically, the records always look in a good state... nice, clean, no obvious scratches, debris, etc... in fact... compared to the pop records in the same store, this manager classical records always look perfect.

2) Still "debugging" the issue - kind repliers have indicated the possibility of static... I have access to a zerostat, which I have applied with not success - Also, I live in Los Angeles, about 1 mile from the beach... most of the times, we sit at 50% relative humidity, so environmental dryness not an issue...

3) That said, the zerostat I have used is one I have available in our lab... they are used, not sure when we got them... so they might be not as effective as I think - I have been tempted to get a new one

4) Mostly I suspect residue left behind by the Spin Clean cleaning solution... but like I said... the zerostat I am using might be ineffective... not sure...

That said, while the problem is clear, and clearly present, I am still amazed about how little it bothers me on jazz and rock records... however the classical ones are ruined for me. Brain is an amazing thing...

5) What are your thought on the MoFi One Clean Solution? I have been thinking of switching to that... see how it works...

THNX!

V

 

[guest110]

I've switched to reel to reel tapes for classical. Unlike rock and jazz, you can still pick them up for a reasonable price and they are typically 7.5 IPS recordings, which sound better than any of the vinyl I have and they are dead quiet. Nothing worse than pops during quiet passages. I prefer vinyl for blues, rock, and some jazz.

 

[Ken Boyd]

I say its the ear, some people hear things others don't. Some people can learn to overlook the noise others don't see a reason when their are other mediums which you won't have to deal with the distractions. You either learn to accept that old things have their merits but you have to accept the inherent problems. Learn to minimize it and accept it, or move on. Why do you think everyone loved CD's when they came out? It wasn't just about portability as we had cassettes which were plenty portable and were able to make transfers by recording from the vinyl back then.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Yes I should have added RTR's as well.

 

[davidro]

Thnx everyone for your kind replies

1) I definitely have a cleaning problem - the source for most of my classical records is a good one I think - cosmetically, the records always look in a good state... nice, clean, no obvious scratches, debris, etc... in fact... compared to the pop records in the same store, this manager classical records always look perfect.

2) Still "debugging" the issue - kind repliers have indicated the possibility of static... I have access to a zerostat, which I have applied with not success - Also, I live in Los Angeles, about 1 mile from the beach... most of the times, we sit at 50% relative humidity, so environmental dryness not an issue...

3) That said, the zerostat I have used is one I have available in our lab... they are used, not sure when we got them... so they might be not as effective as I think - I have been tempted to get a new one

4) Mostly I suspect residue left behind by the Spin Clean cleaning solution... but like I said... the zerostat I am using might be ineffective... not sure...

That said, while the problem is clear, and clearly present, I am still amazed about how little it bothers me on jazz and rock records... however the classical ones are ruined for me. Brain is an amazing thing...

5) What are your thought on the MoFi One Clean Solution? I have been thinking of switching to that... see how it works...

THNX!

V

As I said above, the noises are more noticeable with classical music because there are many quiet passages. In the same condition, non-classical sounds just fine. Plus, I think for classical vinyl you really have to have something more detailed than the usual elliptical stylus.

But you really got to adopt a VAC cleaning. KAB-EV1 is an inexpensive solution. Hell I think it's CHEAP considering the level of improvement it brings to any vinyl rig. You can sell your Spin-Clean and use the proceed to purchase the KAB. Vinyl can be hand-washed on your sink.

 

[gusten]

I can listen normally in a way so imperfections don´t bother me, they are there, but not in the way of the music. If You want no noise, no clicks and pops, forget vinyl, it´s not going to happen.

 

[guiller]

2) Still "debugging" the issue - kind repliers have indicated the possibility of static... I have access to a zerostat, which I have applied with not success - Also, I live in Los Angeles, about 1 mile from the beach... most of the times, we sit at 50% relative humidity, so environmental dryness not an issue...

Do you clean your stylus regularly? Do you have access to a magnifying glass? If your enviroment is humid, then there is a risk of mold (or fungus or another organic contaminant) building in the grooves.

 

[jhtstone]

Just for the fun of it, next time you try a record that seems to have clicks and pops that defy inspection, hold a hair or something similar close to it. If you have a static problem, you will know immediately.

As for the Zerostat, I know they have a very large following and many swear by them, but it never did the trick for me. YMMV.

You do need a decent cart and stylus. I used a Denon DL-110 daily until I set up a Pickering XV-15. Even though the table that it is on is a bit lower quality, I just do not enjoy the DL-110 nearly as much as the XV-15. It's as much about liking the sound of the cart/stylus combo as anything else.

As for not being able to get all of the noise out...there are good recordings and bad recordings. A good recording can shine and dazzle my ears. As mentioned before, I am a bit hearing impaired and not as sensitive to all the little things as some people. The classical I listen to though is not orchestra. It is sonatas, solos, and chamber music. The music is not going to hide the noise if it is there. The sonics of a good quality recording in nice condition just provides that special pleasure that vinyl gives me. A good recording on cd, while it is certainly every bit as good from a quality perspective, does not provide the same appeal. It is not about cd vs. vinyl, it is about a personal preference.

All other things considered, vinyl is not easy and it is not cheap. It is time consuming, it requires a minimum of care and a level of equipment to produce a satisfying sound.

Find an AK'er in your area that listens to classical. Attend a local event. See for yourself what someone, who is happy with their system, is doing that allows their system to make them happy. Even if they are not a classical aficionado, take some records over there and try them on a different system.

There are also threads here strictly about member's classical collection. A long running one is " Today's classical playlist"
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=51069

 

[vmartell]

Do you clean your stylus regularly? Do you have access to a magnifying glass? If your enviroment is humid, then there is a risk of mold (or fungus or another organic contaminant) building in the grooves.

I will take advantage and reply to a few postings using this one - BTW - THNX EVERYONE for taking the time, really appreciate it...

1) To the RTR suggestion... YEAH, I agree... RTR is the non-plus ultra of analog, beyond even vinyl... way more cumbersome too... thought about it, but decided against it... but yeah, I agree very tempting to go that way

2) Replying Forward! I don' have ultra-high end cart/stylus combo, but very decent - own 3: Shure M97xe, AT120E and currently in place, Ortofon 2M Red - stylus regularly cleaned with an Onzow Zerodust, checked using a jewelers loupe - stylus looks normal, no apparent mold. but good suggestion... will probably get a new stylus just for the tests, to ensure that is not a factor

3) First time I've heard of the KAB EV1 - what a clever idea... strip out everything that makes an RCM expensive... wow - will definitely try

4) And last.. yes... maybe too used to to classical on digital... not a bad suggestion, just to stay on it.. I do however, would love to experience classical on vinyl, the way my parents learned to love it... the way the greats did it... Culshaw, Legge, McClure at Columbia and those Deutsche tonmeisters at DG... all worked with vinyl in mind...

Will try for little bit more.. if using an RCM fails, then I will admit defeat... again, I am not unreasonable - don't expect digital silence, but if I can eliminate most pops and clicks and the loudest scratch, I think I can live with everything else. Thnx for your help

V

 

[BillyBatts]

I'm a hybrid. I was mildly into Classical in my late teens. In college, I got into Jazz, and of course Rock was throughout my teens and twenties as a staple genre. It was CD that really helped me appreciate Classical. In the 80's, I thought I'd never pick up a Vinyl record ever again.

My love for Vinyl was lost in the 80's and 90's due to CD but came back strong about 14 years ago.

I still have my DBX 118 Expander that I purchased while in College. It greatly helps remove the pops and clicks you hear from Vinyl. Sure, you have to be careful that you don't over expand or you get "Pumping", but otherwise, it's a great tool for reducing surface vinyl noise.

So now, I'm back into Vinyl and that includes Classical. I'd say my collection is 70 percent Jazz, 20 percent Rock and 10 percent Classical. I did not collect as much Classical as I would have if I had not lived in New York and listened incessantly to WQXR Classical Radio New York. That station spoiled me. Otherwise, I'd have a lot more classical Albums and CD's.