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Codecs and DACs

cscottrun4it

Active Member
I'm trying to get my mind wrapped around DAC quality and delivery output. Let me see if I have this straight.
  • DACs use codecs.
  • A codec is an algorithm used to decode a digital audio stream and convert it to an analog stream that can be played by any audio output device.
  • Codecs support differing audio stream quality. For example, SBC supports MP3-quality streams. LDAC and aptX HD support medium-quality "hi-def' streams.The quality of your analog stream is only as good as the codec you use.
  • CD players rely on DACs for their delivery of an analog signal. DACs use codecs to help process the digital signal CD players generate and output.
  • Analog, wired connections, do not rely on DACs or codecs and, thus, are true to the sound quality of their source.
Have I got all of that right? If so, then here are some questions.
  1. Codecs are free, but you need a better quality chipset to run better quality codecs . For example, to run a codec like LDAC or aptX HD, you need a better quality chipset than to run SBC or AAC?
  2. If a DAC is processing a digital signal sent to it by a source device, it needs some flash memory to hold data while it's processor decodes the digital stream to an analog stream? If enough resources aren't present, distortion occurs?
  3. If the source device is processing the digital audio signal, the resulting analog signal will have to be compressed before it is sent to the output devise. This signal will have to be compressed because of the size of a raw analog stream.
  4. A FLAC file's quality can be downgraded by a DAC that doesnt support delivery of a signal commensurate to the quality of the digital signal created from a FLAC file?
  5. A DAC is only as good as the codecs it supports? Running a hi-res signal through a DAC that just supports SBC and/or AAC codecs will only sound as good as a MP3/CD signal. (That's why you so often hear, Tidal didn't sound any better to me?)
Fundamentally, what am I looking for when choosing a DAC? The codecs it supports? All the rest of it is just "noise? Is a DAC only as good as the codecs it supports? What does it take to support higher end codecs? I think the answers to the questions above will really help me out.
 
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Fundamentally, what am I looking for when choosing a DAC? The codecs it supports? All the rest of it is just "noise? Is a DAC only as good as the codecs it supports? What does it take to support higher end codecs? I think the answers to the questions above will really help me out.
As for answers to your codec questions, I suggest using Google and doing a lot of reading. Only so much info can be transferred via a forum.

As for your fundamental question, it all depends upon your source. Where is your music coming from? Local MP3 or FLAC or HD files? On-line streaming from what source: commercial (Tidal, Spotify, etc.) or radio (TuneIn or direct from internet radio source)?

The next question is how is the source to be connected to the DAC? Bluetooth? Then you need a bluetooth capable DAC that has at least as good a capability as your transmitting source. Wifi, USB, optical, or coax? Then the codec is determined by the source files.

Once you determine the answers to the above, then you can worry about the DAC you need. The codec is the least of my concerns because any quality, modern DAC will support any source file format that can be connected to an input.
 
When it comes to DACs you want it to
-exhibit flat frequency response,
-have inaudible THD+N (below -80 dB)
-match its output voltage with the device you have it connected to (gain-stage)

When these criterias are met you'll soon find yourself looking only for features as all of them are audibly indistinguishable. To mention a few surprises;
-The Chromecast Audio
-The apple lightning to jack-out dongle (yes, it has in-built DAC)
-The Wiim series

All of these are transparent despite their vastly different designs and will not be worse or better sounding than the most expensive audiophile DAC you can find.

Contrary to what many will tell you, a quality DAC has no sound signature. It just converts the 1's and 0's into waveforms.
There is also no correlation between price and sound quality.

Don't worry about codecs. Any modern DAC will support the ones you mention. What you'll want to determine is how you will interact or connect with the DAC.
-WiFi streaming or
-LAN to access local files
-Bluetooth
-Airplay

I think these two articles will be great reads for you:


 
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When it comes to DACs you want it to
-exhibit flat frequency response,
-have inaudible THD+N (below -80 dB)
-match its output voltage with the device you have it connected to (gain-stage)

When these criterias are met you'll soon find yourself looking only for features as all of them are audibly indistinguishable. To mention a few surprises;
-The Chromecast Audio
-The apple lightning to jack-out dongle (yes, it has in-built DAC)
-The Wiim series

All of these are transparent despite their vastly different designs and will not be worse or better sounding than the most expensive audiophile DAC you can find.

Contrary to what many will tell you, a quality DAC has no sound signature. It just converts the 1's and 0's into waveforms.
There is also no correlation between price and sound quality.

Don't worry about codecs. Any modern DAC will support the ones you mention. What you'll want to determine is how you will interact or connect with the DAC.
-WiFi streaming or
-LAN to access local files
-Bluetooth
-Airplay

I think these two articles will be great reads for you:


Thanks for both reads. They are very interesting, but they don't necessarily answer my question.

Let's take a real world example. My phone has a DAC and it supports the SBC, AAC, and LDAC codecs. My Bluetooth headphones have DACs and they support the SBC, AAC, and LDAC codecs. Whorah! They both support the same codecs so they can talk to each other.

There's a catch, however: they both default to the SBC codec, and I want to stream hi-res music from Qobuz. SBC and AAC don't support 24-bit/96-Khz streams, so I have to use the LDAC codec if I want to hear hi-res audio streams. So I enable this codec on my phone (and the headphones abopt it automatically) and bang! The quality of the music is greatly enhanced, at least on lots of classical, jazz, and electronic music streams. (I can't really hear a difference on most electric guitar-heavy recordings.)

Everything in the "Do You Need a DAC" article makes perfect sense from a high-level electronics point of view. A great source file should pass smoothly through the DAC and the analog signal should go happily out into the world. But if you look at the issue from a more detailed processing power standpoint, not all things are equal.

So heres my theory of why things are not equal: There is more overhead when processing data at a higher bit rate at a greater bit depth. Many more calculations have to be run, and to do that efficiently, you have to have fast flash memory to feed a cache that feeds the cpu running the codec that demands greater processing power to create wave forms as fast as it can to send a higher-quality analog signal out the door. (Get all of that? Your DAC has to.) All the data have to arrive in a coherent stream (point-to-point streaming) and so the load is uneven, I believe.

I don't know this for sure, but I'm betting processing MP3 signals using the SBC codec takes a lot less processing power than it takes to process 24‐bit/96-Khz signals using a more complex LDAC codec.

Here's how I came up with my crazy theory.

When I enabled the LDAC codec, my headphone started "distorting" frequencies and dropping the Bluetooth signal. Within the range of human hearing, bottom to top, I could find 12 frequencies that were being distorted. I checked using a frequency generator from the app store. The signal drops seemed random.

So I started to do research and discovered some interesting things associated with the LDAC codec. First is, the codec supports something called A2DP. A2DP allows the source streaming device (in this case, my Samsung S24 phone) to offload it's digital stream to the DAC in my headphones (in this case, my Sony 1000XM5s buds). As I described above, I suspect the buds' DACs don't have the horsepower to perform processing the hi-res stream.

So you can turn off A2DP offloading. This forces the source device to use its own DAC to decode the digital stream and then broadcast an analog signal to the headphones. Of course this signal is lossy, (I'll fight to the death over lossy signals not being all they're cracked up to be.), but the distortion was gone! My theory is, the phone's DAC has enough processing power to handle a 24-bit/96-Khz signal processed using the LDAC codec.

Who knew? My phone has more computing power than the 1st eighteen computers I owned.

So I go back to my questions, which could be summarized this way: while all DACs should process digital signals the same way, all DACs are not created equal to handle that processing, right?

And if that is true, while consumers may not know it, some DACs, based in their hardware configuration, can only support codecs like SBC and ACC, which are not capable of supporting he-res source signals.

And, thus, we have the Tidal Myth, which says, consumers can't hear a difference between Spotify and hi-res Tidel because their DAC (on their phone or computer or whatever) doesn't support LDAC or aptX HD for any number of reasons, or they think they can hear a difference because they just want to.

Of course the Tidal Myth doesn't actually exist if the listener uses a DAC that is properly configured both in terms of hardware and codecs.

Frankly, until I figured all this out, I couldn't hear a difference with Qobuz, except in my mind. I thought if the stream said it was 24‐bit/96 Khz, I must be hearing a difference. I'm still not sure that's not true, but I think it is. The question is, do you, or anyone, think it is.
 
all DACs are not created equal to handle that processing, right?
No, they're obviously using different components, BUT! -I think you are missing a pivotal point in your "investigation". Namely that if the DAC in question is advertised as supporting LDAC it should handle it satisfactory. If it does not it should go back to where it came from.
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I've had many brands of BT earbuds and headphones. Many of them had these really annoying cut-outs of music for example when running and turning your heard and such. Some of these cutouts distorted sound before and after. The stream is constantly adjusting its bitrate according to connection strength. For LDAC this is anywhere between 330 to 990 kbit/s. Some devices handle this change more seamless than others. That's just how it is and have always been IR to BT devices IME.
Except for apple products for some reason. I have never experienced anything other than seamless rock solid connection to my airpods pro and now airpods pro 2. Don't ask me why that is.

And, thus, we have the Tidal Myth, which says, consumers can't hear a difference between Spotify and hi-res Tidel because their DAC (on their phone or computer or whatever) doesn't support LDAC or aptX HD for any number of reasons, or they think they can hear a difference because they just want to.

Of course the Tidal Myth doesn't actually exist if the listener uses a DAC that is properly configured both in terms of hardware and codecs.

Frankly, until I figured all this out, I couldn't hear a difference with Qobuz, except in my mind. I thought if the stream said it was 24‐bit/96 Khz, I must be hearing a difference. I'm still not sure that's not true, but I think it is. The question is, do you, or anyone, think it is.
Most people can't tell Spotify (Best quality) from lossless.
You tell me what you hear. Here are links to some DIY testing.
For the raw file comparisons you should make sure to use Foobar AxB.

https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2015/06/02/411473508/how-well-can-you-hear-audio-quality

ABX High Fidelity Test list

A set of browser-based ABX tests comparing lossless and lossy music samples
abx.digitalfeed.net
abx.digitalfeed.net


Tidal Hi-Fi (16/44.1 FLAC) Vs. Spotify Premium @ Very High (320k Vorbis)​

www.mediafire.com

AB-tidal-vs-spotify

 
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