cafe latte
Addicted Member
The 103 sounds stunning with a Micro Ridge and a boron cantilever. It keeps the same presentation but with less muddled highs and better tracking. The conical 103 sounds great, but thr micro ridge is stunning.
Chris
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CONICAL LOVE -Who loves running a conical needle on a cartridge most don't???
- Thread starter illinoisteve
- Start date
Chris
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
A man who thinks like I do. I usually do stay in a conical state of mind.
war2thegrave
Active Member
I recently installed an ATVM740ML on the turntable and want to switch to a conical for my less than good condition records. Stylus swapping on the VM bodies is easy, but does present some risk of damage if wanting to change them on a whim from record to record.
To reduce that risk, I found a cheap AT-150e body which has the same weight and dimensions as the VM7xx body and will install the VM10CB stylus on it.
Then I can just swap complete headshells depending on what I'm listening to.
I might be the first person who has considered installing a 'lowly' conical on such a body. Hopefully, it works out well.
To reduce that risk, I found a cheap AT-150e body which has the same weight and dimensions as the VM7xx body and will install the VM10CB stylus on it.
Then I can just swap complete headshells depending on what I'm listening to.
I might be the first person who has considered installing a 'lowly' conical on such a body. Hopefully, it works out well.
I like that solution. I once had three headshells for three different Stanton 500 bodies to make it easy to swap out the 2.7 mil for 78's (Stanton's screw-in headshell weights meant I didn't have to adjust the counterweight to get the 5 gram tracking force it needed), a 1 mil for older mono records, and a .7 mil for newer mono and stereo records.
Shure offered a conical stylus option for their flagship models all the way up to the V15 V. Stereophile's review of the V15 IV included a test of the conical, and they wrote, ". . . all of our auditioners indicated a preference for the spherical, despite its theoretical inferiority." Maybe the VMN10CB will be a pleasant surprise.
Really enjoying my Denon DL-103 with conical tip! Best VTA is 3.5 mm higher up (arm pivot) from perfectly level, with conical stylus only. Have VTA micrometer to get that precise height.
flavio81
Turntable technician
Yes, the -G versions of the Shure V15 styli, that is, the conical ones, have been sort of a cult favorite.Sadly I could never get one.
Tell us more when you try it.
I swapped the VM540ML to a VMNCB10 stylus too. A completely different sound, perhaps the ML is true to the original signal, but the CB sounds fun and gets you in the CONICAL STATE OF MIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIND
war2thegrave
Active Member
I'll have to see.
An increasing amount of my stuff has been dissappearing into a USPS black hole lately.
flavio81
Turntable technician
Back to 2026...
The VM510CB cartridge got gifted away to a friend long ago. But I bought a new one some days ago.
Swapped out the 540ML needle (VMN40ML) for the conical (VMN10CB) again, and yes, in some senses the conical is preferable to the ML. I'm listening to a piano record, Liszt "Sonata in h-moll" by Claudio Arrau, and the piano sounds so "right" that I don't want to fit the ML again. Of course i need to do more thorough comparisons, but the conical sounds more than just "fine", it sounds really good for so much less price.
In fact i'm thinking of preparing a new frankestein, the needle of the Audio Technica Series I (LP Gear Series I) cartridge, a p-mount with well made conical stylus, on a VM-5XX body...
Conical tips present the essence of sweet, sweet music. Plus, they yield a lower noise floor.
The myth that conicals don't track high treble correctly, is still a myth.
Perhaps, above 12KHz, the tracking - reproduction is slightly limited, but, how many of us still hear 12KHz clearly ?
Another bonus of the conical/spherical is their lifespan.
They wear at a much lower rate than ellipticals...
The myth that conicals don't track high treble correctly, is still a myth.
Perhaps, above 12KHz, the tracking - reproduction is slightly limited, but, how many of us still hear 12KHz clearly ?
Another bonus of the conical/spherical is their lifespan.
They wear at a much lower rate than ellipticals...
flavio81
Turntable technician
They can track 20KHz just fine, it all depends on the recorded level and groove radius (distance from the record center).
tubelectron
Super Member
I have an AT-VM540ML and an AT-VM95C, each on a separate Technics headshells.
Since I tend to find the ML a bit too bright, I should re-test the C...
My Vinyl Afficionado Friends highly praise their Denon DL-103 and her conical stylus !
T
Since I tend to find the ML a bit too bright, I should re-test the C...
My Vinyl Afficionado Friends highly praise their Denon DL-103 and her conical stylus !
T
par4ken
Member
Cool thread!
One consideration is that when using a different stylus shape the stylus will contact the groove differently, riding on a different portion of the groove wall. The result is that a worn record groove may sound new using a different stylus shape. The Shibata shape is particularly good at making old records sound new. I actually noticed the effect many years ago when switching from conical to elliptical and vice versa.
In the sixties many records were made using the Dynagroove process which pre distorted the signal to make it sound better when using the then (almost universal) conical stylus shape. Ideally they should be played back with a conical stylus for lowest distortion.
Recently a friend of mine needed a new cartridge and the Audio Technica AT3600L was available for a ridiculously low price. It must be Audio Technica's bottom of the line cartridge using a conical tip, still it sounded great! He got himself several more, replacing cartridges that were mostly elliptical. The entire cartridge was cheaper than a new stylus for any of the old cartridges would have been.
In the early seventies I replaced the old Acos ceramic cartridge in the Garrard 210 from our old Viking console with the Shure M3D. The M3D was the bottom of the line Shure with a conical stylus. Being an old model with a rather odd shape it fit the Garrard headshell perfectly, as if specially designed for it. By adding an RIAA preamp I was blown away by the vastly improved sound quality. While the aforementioned is just a testament to MM compared to ceramic it did show that a conical stylus could sound amazing!
I now have a Grado 78 (78C silver body) cartridge mounted in an old Lenco just so that I can play my Mother's old record collection and I am totally amazed by just how good those old records now sound!
One consideration is that when using a different stylus shape the stylus will contact the groove differently, riding on a different portion of the groove wall. The result is that a worn record groove may sound new using a different stylus shape. The Shibata shape is particularly good at making old records sound new. I actually noticed the effect many years ago when switching from conical to elliptical and vice versa.
In the sixties many records were made using the Dynagroove process which pre distorted the signal to make it sound better when using the then (almost universal) conical stylus shape. Ideally they should be played back with a conical stylus for lowest distortion.
Recently a friend of mine needed a new cartridge and the Audio Technica AT3600L was available for a ridiculously low price. It must be Audio Technica's bottom of the line cartridge using a conical tip, still it sounded great! He got himself several more, replacing cartridges that were mostly elliptical. The entire cartridge was cheaper than a new stylus for any of the old cartridges would have been.
In the early seventies I replaced the old Acos ceramic cartridge in the Garrard 210 from our old Viking console with the Shure M3D. The M3D was the bottom of the line Shure with a conical stylus. Being an old model with a rather odd shape it fit the Garrard headshell perfectly, as if specially designed for it. By adding an RIAA preamp I was blown away by the vastly improved sound quality. While the aforementioned is just a testament to MM compared to ceramic it did show that a conical stylus could sound amazing!
I now have a Grado 78 (78C silver body) cartridge mounted in an old Lenco just so that I can play my Mother's old record collection and I am totally amazed by just how good those old records now sound!
flavio81
Turntable technician
To be more precise, a line contact stylus like the Shibata or Microline will not contact the groove in only one point but a larger surface, thus "averaging" the surface and consequently ignoring away any damage.
Now, regarding portions of the groove wall: if a record is worn by a 0.7mil spherical (or 0.7x0.n mil elliptical), chances are it will sound pretty good with a 0.5mil conical. In this case we indeed are riding a different portion of the groove wall.
Indeed, and not only Dynagroove, there were other record labels that used a similar process, for example Decca's (and Telefunken's) "Royal Sound Stereo".
However, on its day the M3D was Shure's top cartridge.
par4ken
Member
Yes the M3D must have been the first or one of the first moving magnet cartridges put out by Shure, cutting edge in the 1960's. By the early to mid seventies it was at the bottom of Shure's line up.
When I bought a new turntable in the mid seventies it came with a M91ED. I was never 100% happy with it's sound quality, sounding to me rather muddy in the mid bass. I replaced it with a Grado F1+.
I'm struck by the high prices (eBay) that M3D's are going for today. When I bought mine I think it was only $10.00.
When I bought a new turntable in the mid seventies it came with a M91ED. I was never 100% happy with it's sound quality, sounding to me rather muddy in the mid bass. I replaced it with a Grado F1+.
I'm struck by the high prices (eBay) that M3D's are going for today. When I bought mine I think it was only $10.00.
flavio81
Turntable technician
Yes, you are correct, i just wanted to point out that at a certain point in time it was the top cartridge. And try to get one now with a good stylus, as you see they're expensive now because it has its fans!!
Maybe the M91ED had a worn stylus? these classic shures like the M75 and M91 all have good bass as far as I recall. Their tonal balance is their strongest asset in my opinion. Still, i'm more of a fan of the SC35C (<--- CONICAL LOVE) and of the formerly affordable M92E.
par4ken
Member
The M91ED was new, I just didn't care for its tonal balance. To me there was too much in the mid bass region. In contrast I loved the tonal balance of the Grado. I don't recall any tonal issues with the M3D, but that was in the very early seventies. I now have an M3D that I'm going to try out in a Garrard Type A That I'm restoring. Actually the turntable appears to be functioning just fine so it won't require much restoration!
After speakers phono cartridges have the biggest effect on the overall sound quality. For many years now I have become a devotee of moving coils, but none of them have a conical stylus. My current foray into the vintage is based largely on nostalgia and the appreciation that they just don't make them like that anymore!
flavio81
Turntable technician
Denon DL-103, DL-103R, and the ortofon SPU 1S !!
And Charisma Audio Charm
Charm Moving Coil Cartridge
Specifications Cartridge Weight: 6.8 g Cartridge body: beech wood Cantilever: aluminum Stylus: spherical diamond Vertical Tracking Angle: 20 degrees Coil: pure iron cross-coil with pure copper Outp...
www.charismaaudio.com
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
In the days of the Type III, few in Oak Ridge, TN bought conical styli for them. My favorite dealer, and then audio mentor was required by Shure to stock them. I had an M-75 in need of a stylus (used the EJ then). My dealer friend, handed me a V-15 Type III-G. He said, you deserve a taste of the good life, no charge. A gentleman of the highest. I loved that sound. I was converted!