Connections between 2 integrated amps

[Gwalker85]

Hi,

I have a Marantz 1060 integrated amp with tape monitor and an Onkyo Integra A-8190 integrated amp.

I have connected an RCA cable from the Tape Out on the Marantz 1060 to the CD Direct input on the Onkyo Integra.

The question I have is about changing the RCA connection on the Marantz 1060 from Tape Out connection to the Pre Out connection.

Would this be advisable? Or not?

I am able to use the selector switch on the Marantz 1060 and as long as I keep the Tape Monitor button depressed, I am hearing the different sources through some Thiel speakers that are cabled to the Onkyo Integra A-8190. The only control on the Integra A-8190 that works is the volume control, as the connection to the CD Direct input does not allow tone or balance controls. The Onkyo Integra A-8190 does not have Pre Out or Main In connectors like the Marantz 1060. Thanks for any replies!

 

[onplane]

It is hard to answer your question, because we don't know what you are trying to accomplish. For example, why do you have the Onkyo tied to the Marantz?

I can tell you what happens if you use the pre-out. The signal going into the Onkyo will vary based upon the volume control in the Marantz. This works if you want a "master" volume control and you also want the ability to fine tune relative balance between the speakers attached to the two amps. You'd do this fine tuning with the volume control on the Onkyo, but this only works when the Onkyo speakers are more efficient.

 

[Gwalker85]

It is hard to answer your question, because we don't know what you are trying to accomplish. For example, why do you have the Onkyo tied to the Marantz?

I can tell you what happens if you use the pre-out. The signal going into the Onkyo will vary based upon the volume control in the Marantz. This works if you want a "master" volume control and you also want the ability to fine tune relative balance between the speakers attached to the two amps. You'd do this fine tuning with the volume control on the Onkyo, but this only works when the Onkyo speakers are more efficient.

Thanks onplane,

I connected the Onkyo to the Marantz because the Thiel speakers are 4 OHM and require more power than the Marantz can provide. No speakers are connected to the Marantz.

Also, the Onkyo's phono input seems not to work and I want to listen to vinyl and make use of the Marantz's phono stage. I am happy with the connections as they are, but wondering what connecting to the PRE OUT on the Marantz would get me, or if I should avoid this connection for any reason.

 

[onplane]

Thanks onplane,

I connected the Onkyo to the Marantz because the Thiel speakers are 4 OHM and require more power than the Marantz can provide. No speakers are connected to the Marantz.

Also, the Onkyo's phono input seems not to work and I want to listen to vinyl and make use of the Marantz's phono stage. I am happy with the connections as they are, but wondering what connecting to the PRE OUT on the Marantz would get me, or if I should avoid this connection for any reason.

OK, not that we know what you are trying to accomplish, we can help. In your situation, you have it set up incorrectly. What you want is your Marantz as the Master and the Onkyo as the Slave.

So, keep the CD input on the Onkyo and turn it's volume control to max (highest possible volume). Connect the other end to pre-out on the Marantz. Now the volume controls, L/R balance, source selection and tone controls on the Marantz drive everything.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[rwartner]

TapeRec (out ) amp A to input amp B is like a direct wire through amp A. You can connect speakers to both amps and will play same music. Tone and volume controls should work on both. I have this configuration running 2 sets of speakers.

I do not understand why you need the tape monitor on and why the tone controls do not work. I would try connecting a different input than the CD Direct input (not the phono input though). Something doesn't seem right. I don't understand how the Onkyo would hear the Marantz - it should pass directly through from the turntable as if the Marantz is not there.

However, you are running one set of speakers and want to use Marantz phono pre amp and Onkyo power amp. I think You should be using the preout configuration to accomplish this.

Jerry answered while I was writing this.

 

[Gwalker85]

OK, not that we know what you are trying to accomplish, we can help. In your situation, you have it set up incorrectly. What you want is your Marantz as the Master and the Onkyo as the Slave.

So, keep the CD input on the Onkyo and turn it's volume control to max (highest possible volume). Connect the other end to pre-out on the Marantz. Now the volume controls, source selection and tone controls on the Marantz drive everything.

Regards,
Jerry

Thanks Jerry!

 

[I LIKE MUSIC]

It depends on ones thinking and preferences.

Sometimes less is more. Using the tape output bypasses the volume control and tone controls (some would say delivering a better quality signal) making the phono input act more like a stand alone phono stage. The same with the other inputs Some prefer the path with the fewest things between the source and the amplifier.

Other may like the functionality of having the use of the volume, balance and tone controls.

The simple solution is to give both a try and see which one you like the best.

 

[oblomov]

No speakers are connected to the Marantz?

So the Marantz is adding to the power of the Onkyo simply through it's Tape Monitor output?
Sorry, I'm lost here

 

[oblomov]

Okay I misunderstood

Thought that you thought you were summing the power of both amps

 

[Gwalker85]

It depends on ones thinking and preferences.

Sometimes less is more. Using the tape output bypasses the volume control and tone controls (some would say delivering a better quality signal) making the phono input act more like a stand alone phono stage. The same with the other inputs Some prefer the path with the fewest things between the source and the amplifier.

Other may like the functionality of having the use of the volume, balance and tone controls.

The simple solution is to give both a try and see which one you like the best.

Thanks for this! I did give both a try and while both work and sound similar, I think that I like the "less is more" connection from 1060 Tape Out to CD Direct input on the Onkyo for the reason that the phono input on the 1060 is acting more like a stand alone phono stage.

 

[onplane]

Thanks for this! I did give both a try and while both work and sound similar, I think that I like the "less is more" connection from 1060 Tape Out to CD Direct input on the Onkyo for the reason that the phono input on the 1060 is acting more like a stand alone phono stage.

Yeah, it's a stand alone phono stage, but you said you select source on the Marantz?? Further, with this scheme you have no tone controls for any source!!

If you know anything about the record industry, you'll know that years ago many record companies exaggerated high frequencies to compensate for the poor play back devices (record players) prevalent at the time. Thus, on modern systems you’ll need to reduce high frequencies on many old records to bring them into balance and ... you have no way to do that with your scheme.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[Gwalker85]

Yeah, it's a stand alone phono stage, but you said you select source on the Marantz?? Further, with this scheme you have no tone controls for any source!!

If you know anything about the record industry, you'll know that years ago many record companies exaggerated high frequencies to compensate for the poor play back devices (record players) prevalent at the time. Thus, on modern systems you’ll need to reduce high frequencies on many old records to bring them into balance and ... you have no way to do that with your scheme.

Regards,
Jerry

Jerry,

I did not know that about the record industry. I normally leave tone controls alone and set them so that they are in the mid position for neutral. You're right about not having any tone controls when I use the connection to the Tape Out jacks on the Marantz Amp.

With either connection on the Marantz Amp (Tape Out or Pre Out), I use the selector on the Marantz. With the Tape Out connection, I need to keep the Tape Mon button on the Marantz pressed IN all the time.

Thanks again,

George

 

[onplane]

Jerry,

I did not know that about the record industry. I normally leave tone controls alone and set them so that they are in the mid position for neutral. You're right about not having any tone controls when I use the connection to the Tape Out jacks on the Marantz Amp.

With either connection on the Marantz Amp (Tape Out or Pre Out), I use the selector on the Marantz. With the Tape Out connection, I need to keep the Tape Mon button on the Marantz pressed IN all the time.

Thanks again,

George

Once again, George, you have no access to tone controls. It makes no difference where you leave the controls positioned ... they do nothing on either amp.

Also, why do you keep the Tape Mon button pushed in? All it does is override the selector switch for the Marantz. Since there are no speakers attached and since I just assume you have the volume control full OFF, what different does it make?

Regards,
Jerry

 

[sqlsavior]

Thanks for this! I did give both a try and while both work and sound similar, I think that I like the "less is more" connection from 1060 Tape Out to CD Direct input on the Onkyo for the reason that the phono input on the 1060 is acting more like a stand alone phono stage.

From a high-fidelity perspective, and a minimalist perspective (often coinciding, it seems) you are doing everything right, and that is why you like the sound best the way you have it, I'll wager. The Rec or Tape Out is the fastest exit from the Marantz, right after the source selector, skipping the line stage and the tone control stage, and the volume control. The Tape Monitor switched On prevents the signal from entering the downstream portion of the Marantz, lessening the chance of any interference or crosstalk, etc. - it is effectively disconnected. So, you have reduced the Marantz to a source selector switch plus a phono preamp, a fine minimalist preamp. The CD Direct input on the Onkyo is a-l-m-o-s-t like a pre-in, but also includes the attenuator, which in this case you still need. An ingenious solution, imo, and sure better than two line stages in series, or even an extra volume control. You can still use the other inputs on the Marantz and switch between them there. Well done.

 

[onplane]

From a high-fidelity perspective, and a minimalist perspective (often coinciding, it seems) you are doing everything right, and that is why you like the sound best the way you have it, I'll wager. The Rec or Tape Out is the fastest exit from the Marantz, right after the source selector, skipping the line stage and the tone control stage, and the volume control. The Tape Monitor switched On prevents the signal from entering the downstream portion of the Marantz, lessening the chance of any interference or crosstalk, etc. - it is effectively disconnected. So, you have reduced the Marantz to a source selector switch plus a phono preamp, a fine minimalist preamp. The CD Direct input on the Onkyo is a-l-m-o-s-t like a pre-in, but also includes the attenuator, which in this case you still need. An ingenious solution, imo, and sure better than two line stages in series, or even an extra volume control. You can still use the other inputs on the Marantz and switch between them there. Well done.

From a "minimalist perspective" he should connect all sources to the Onyko except for the phono. (Actually, he should get the Onkyo phono repaired if it's truly not working.) Then even on the phono, he should route that through the AUX input so that he gets access to tone controls. Anything else adds to the signal path or bypasses tone controls which give users a chance to correct for room acoustics or poor recording frequency balance.

 

[Gwalker85]

Once again, George, you have no access to tone controls. It makes no difference where you leave the controls positioned ... they do nothing on either amp.

Also, why do you keep the Tape Mon button pushed in? All it does is override the selector switch for the Marantz. Since there are no speakers attached and since I just assume you have the volume control full OFF, what different does it make?

Regards,
Jerry

Jerry,

After reading your question this morning, I discovered that the Tape Mon button does not need to be pushed in. After thinking about it, I guess I'm surprised that I was hearing the sources with the Tape Mon button depressed. I would think I would need to be making a recording with a tape recorder that was connected to both Tape In and Tape Out for me to hear the actual recording as it was being made.

Thanks again Jerry, I'm happy to have all this good stuff to think about. Have to be a little picky about what to think about these days.....

 

[Gwalker85]

From a high-fidelity perspective, and a minimalist perspective (often coinciding, it seems) you are doing everything right, and that is why you like the sound best the way you have it, I'll wager. The Rec or Tape Out is the fastest exit from the Marantz, right after the source selector, skipping the line stage and the tone control stage, and the volume control. The Tape Monitor switched On prevents the signal from entering the downstream portion of the Marantz, lessening the chance of any interference or crosstalk, etc. - it is effectively disconnected. So, you have reduced the Marantz to a source selector switch plus a phono preamp, a fine minimalist preamp. The CD Direct input on the Onkyo is a-l-m-o-s-t like a pre-in, but also includes the attenuator, which in this case you still need. An ingenious solution, imo, and sure better than two line stages in series, or even an extra volume control. You can still use the other inputs on the Marantz and switch between them there. Well done.

Thanks so much for this explanation! It made sense to me somewhat intuitively, and I am grateful to know more about the signal quality and path!

 

[Gwalker85]

From a "minimalist perspective" he should connect all sources to the Onyko except for the phono. (Actually, he should get the Onkyo phono repaired if it's truly not working.) Then even on the phono, he should route that through the AUX input so that he gets access to tone controls. Anything else adds to the signal path or bypasses tone controls which give users a chance to correct for room acoustics or poor recording frequency balance.

Jerry,

The Onkyo is on its last legs. I had actually thought it was ready for recycling, as the only input that seemed to work was the CD Direct input. But for now, I'll go with it as it is. My new used Thiel speakers are a step up for me and came from a house nearby that has been for sale for some time. The realtor that staged the house said that the Thiels had to go, and I got them. The owners have promised me the matching components, including a Krell amplifier, when the house sells.

Thanks,

George

 

[onplane]

Jerry,

After reading your question this morning, I discovered that the Tape Mon button does not need to be pushed in. After thinking about it, I guess I'm surprised that I was hearing the sources with the Tape Mon button depressed. I would think I would need to be making a recording with a tape recorder that was connected to both Tape In and Tape Out for me to hear the actual recording as it was being made.

Thanks again Jerry, I'm happy to have all this good stuff to think about. Have to be a little picky about what to think about these days.....

George, high quality tape decks have 3 or more heads. This scheme guarantees one head is dedicated to recording and one head dedicated to playback. The playback head is always AFTER the record head. This way you select the source with your selector switch and that signal goes immediately to Rec Out by passing volume, balance and tone controls. This "selected" signal is laid down on the tape at the record head and two to three seconds later it is picked up by the playback head and routed to the Tape In or Mon input. When you push Tape Mon this "playedback" signal then goes through the "normal path" in the amp of volume, balance and tone controls. Notice the beauty of this scheme is you actually listen to the recorded music that you put on the tape, so if you hit a bad patch of tape ... you can hear it!

George, hope this explanation helps you understand how this all works.

Regards,
Jerry

PS: When I say that the "selected signal" goes immediately to Tape Out, that is NOT always true. I have a receiver that conditions or buffers the signal prior to exiting via Tape Out. This little buffering circuit only works in the Tape Out path.

 

[Gwalker85]

George, high quality tape decks have 3 or more heads. This scheme guarantees one head is dedicated to recording and one head dedicated to playback. The playback head is always AFTER the record head. This way you select the source with your selector switch and that signal goes immediately to Rec Out by passing volume, balance and tone controls. This "selected" signal is laid down on the tape at the record head and two to three seconds later it is picked up by the playback head and routed to the Tape In or Mon input. When you push Tape Mon this "playedback" signal then goes through the "normal path" in the amp of volume, balance and tone controls. Notice the beauty of this scheme is you actually listen to the recorded music that you put on the tape, so if you hit a bad patch of tape ... you can hear it!

George, hope this explanation helps you understand how this all works.

Regards,
Jerry

PS: When I say that the "selected signal" goes immediately to Tape Out, that is NOT always true. I have a receiver that conditions or buffers the signal prior to exiting via Tape Out. This little buffering circuit only works in the Tape Out path.

Jerry,

I actually had a 3 head Sony Tape deck back in the day when the Marantz was newish, maybe in the early 70s. I do remember that the deck had to have the 3rd head to work with the Tape Monitor circuit, so appreciate your explanation and and thank you for your continued attention.

George