Converting my home office to a listening room

[JoeDotCom]

HI, I hope you dont mind me posting my question again. I kinda asked backwards last night in a different thread I started.

Here we go.

I am looking to convert my home office room into a listening room. Unfortunately it is my only 100% mine room in the house, so it needs to serve 3 purposes: Listening, PC workstation, and storage.

The room is in the basement of a townhouse. I love it because this townhouse has concrete floors/ceilings. I get decent isolation, but unfortunately my wife likes to read in the living room which is directly above my listening room and even with the concrete floor, the floor vents transmit plenty of sound between my space and hers, though she has been very tolerant so far.


So my goal is 'improvement' of my listening space. The problem is; I don't have any specific complaints. I do think that bass builds up and booms down there. Sometimes, i can play a bassy song (example: Angle From Massive Attack) and the bass it audible / nice in the room, but really loud / boomy in other parts of the basement.

The only other goal is have is to achieve some 'imaging'. I am not sure if my speakers / setup are really capable, and I plan to keep climbing the hifi ladder, but I do know that i have read here on AK that room treatment matters.

So, here are the dimensions I am working with. (Remember the basement is all concrete; wall to wall and ceiling and floor... but finished w/ (crappy) wood paneling on studs.) My measurements are from panel to panel unless otherwise noted.

7' 7'' concrete ceiling
6' 7'' drop ceiling

Whole Basement
24' 5'' x 35' Panel to panel

Listening space:
11' deep
16' 1'' wide (the last 2' 6'' of the width is a 'whole wall' closet w/o doors)
ceiling matches rest of basement.


Embarrassing but (i think) necessary; here are some photos of my current space. I need to clean it, but unfortunately i have little storage space in the house, so this room needs to be a listening room, office and a storage space. I am hoping to balance that better.



Here is my rig. this is the photo I show off when i want to show my rig. It hapily excludes the piles of crap hiding all around my listening room.

Now I show you the 'real' room, here is a pano from the listening seat in all it's glory.

Next i did a 180 from the left side of the room. Here you can see the computer desk, speaker storage, and the 'rig'. I should also note that the speaker storage area is also the outside wall of the basement, that corner is where the two concrete walls meet. so the opposite corner (where I am shooting from) is near the middle of the building in general.

Next I shot from the other corner of the same wall. here you can see my speaker pile, the 'rig' and the 'doorless' closet. All the way in the right you can see the door to the room. Also in this shot, you will notice a dartboard... that is above the listening seat.

I am hoping that there are some things I can do w/ what I have to work with here (my room, and the various types of insulation mentionedbelow) to help move me along the road to audio nirvana. (note: the JOURNEY: so far has been pretty nirvana-esc, henc my continued driving.)


The place where I work has some extra of this sound attenuation fire blanket stuff. Its really just Thermafiber mineral wool insulation. I was thinking of building some panels using it, to hang in my listening room. the room is currently untreated. ( the room is made from wood paneling with a standard drop ceiling and carpeted floor. room is in my basement which has concrete on all 4 sides plus the floor and ceiling are concrete above/below.)

I'm thinking I may either build some panels for the walls using the stuff. I also have access to some other acoustic tile ( see photos) and also some ceiling tile.

do I have enough stuff to get started treating my room? recommendations?

I found some data on the Sound Attenuation Fire Blankets
http://www.thermafiber.com/images/uploads/pdf/safb data sheet.pdf
interesting.


Here's acoustic performance

RevMan Already mentioned that I will need this stuff to be pretty thick to get decent bass attenuation. I am hoping i have access to enough material to make some sort of improvement.


These are the other materials I can use.

What can I do (what would YOU do) if you had my limited resources to make this space more acoustically hifi-friendly?


thanks for reading.

-Joe

 

[JoeDotCom]

I am thinking it may be better to flip the room. Putting my back to the concrete wall. Perhaps I could make some panels out of the mineral wool insulation and place them on the wall behind the speakers.

Maybe some sort of bass trap in the corner of my room where the two concrete corners meet?

Am I on the right track?

-Joe

 

[RevMen]

Am I on the right track?

Yes you are.

Putting a bass trap in any corner will help clear up low frequency. It doesn't really matter which corner you choose. You can build one by stacking a bunch of those mineral wool panels. Don't compress them, just stack them (or roll them). You can wrap them in burlap or other breathable material to keep them together and make them look nice.

You can help imaging by placing absorbers in key locations. Almost always that means "first reflection points." You can find those points with the mirror track. Sit in your listening position and have an accomplice move a mirror around your walls (and ceiling, if possible). Anywhere you can see one of your speakers in the mirror is a first reflection point. Treat those locations with an absorptive panel and you should hear your highs and mids tighten up.

There will be one first reflection point on each room surface for each speaker. So if you have 2 speakers, there will be two spots on the front wall, two spots on the left wall, etc. Start by treating the first reflection points closest to the speakers, (on the front wall, probably). Then do the side walls, then the ceiling, and if you still have material for it, the back wall behind you.

You can use those Tectum panels if you run out of mineral wool, but it won't be as good. It would still be a lot better than wood paneling, concrete, or wallboard. If I were in your position, I would actually cover the entire ceiling with Tectum because I like a very dead room and Tectum is kind of wild stuff.

the floor vents transmit plenty of sound between my space and hers, though she has been very tolerant so far.

Are these supply ducts leading from your furnace?

 

[JoeDotCom]

Putting a bass trap in any corner will help clear up low frequency. It doesn't really matter which corner you choose. You can build one by stacking a bunch of those mineral wool panels. Don't compress them, just stack them (or roll them). You can wrap them in burlap or other breathable material to keep them together and make them look nice.

Cool. I feel like the corner where the concrete walls meet would be the most important corner Bass-wise. All the other corners are only the paneling coming together which the bass would mostly just pass right through, yah?

You can help imaging by placing absorbers in key locations. Almost always that means "first reflection points." You can find those points with the mirror track. Sit in your listening position and have an accomplice move a mirror around your walls (and ceiling, if possible). Anywhere you can see one of your speakers in the mirror is a first reflection point. Treat those locations with an absorptive panel and you should hear your highs and mids tighten up.

There will be one first reflection point on each room surface for each speaker. So if you have 2 speakers, there will be two spots on the front wall, two spots on the left wall, etc. Start by treating the first reflection points closest to the speakers, (on the front wall, probably). Then do the side walls, then the ceiling, and if you still have material for it, the back wall behind you.

Excellent. I have seen this recommended in other threads and plan to follow. I did not think about the reflection of the speaker from the opposite wall (ie: right speaker's first reflection off the left wall). Interesting / cool.

So, the drop ceiling would benefit from treatment as well? I had not thought about that. I wonder if the Tectum panels are the correct size to drop in in exchange for the current drop-ceiling panels.

You can use those Tectum panels if you run out of mineral wool, but it won't be as good. It would still be a lot better than wood paneling, concrete, or wallboard. If I were in your position, I would actually cover the entire ceiling with Tectum because I like a very dead room and Tectum is kind of wild stuff.

When i was in college and still living at home, i helped close down one of the TV studios I worked at and scored all the Tectim paneling. I did all the walls / floor in my bedroom and it was AWESOME! dusty, but AWESOME! I need to measure to see if i can replace the drop ceiling panels. Otherwise I am not sure if i would trust hanging the panels from the existing ceiling/panels.

Are these supply ducts leading from your furnace?

Yes, the furnace is iin the area behind the 'open closet' are of my room. There are 2 ducts that run to the living room above and one that feeds into my listening room.

Thank you for taking the time to write the great response. It is greatly appreciated!!

-Joe

 

[RevMen]

So, the drop ceiling would benefit from treatment as well?

Oops. Sorry, I wasn't paying close enough attention. What kind of ceiling tiles are in place now? Or do you know?

Do you have any interest in tearing out the drop ceiling altogether?

Yes, the furnace is iin the area behind the 'open closet' are of my room. There are 2 ducts that run to the living room above and one that feeds into my listening room.

This is tough, but not impossible.

Are the existing ducts lined or bare sheet metal? If you can replace bare metal ducts with fiberglass lined ducts (lining on the interior, of course), that could make a big difference.

 

[noise gate]

They make a fabric connecting device for duct work. It's to help reduce sound transmision by dampening the duct pipes.

Basically you remove a length of the metal and install a this fabric sleeve in your pipes to stop vibration from traveling the length of the pipes, if you know what I mean.
That, if you can find one to install in the duct that feeds your listening room, and wrapping them should do a lot to reduce, if not eliminate sound leakage.

One thing to consider reagarding ducts is cleaning them or moisture/ mold build up. If they're fibreglass inside they could hold moisture in summertime. Also as someone who cleaned furnaces / ducts for a time, if it ain't metal you can't clean it. Any dust / hair / polen that gets in will be there premanently.

 

[JoeDotCom]

Oops. Sorry, I wasn't paying close enough attention. What kind of ceiling tiles are in place now? Or do you know?

Do you have any interest in tearing out the drop ceiling altogether?

I am not against considering removing the ceiling, but I would say it is a bit more extreme than i was planning. I am not up on my ceiling tile terminology. Are these photos worth a thousand words?

Are the existing ducts lined or bare sheet metal? If you can replace bare metal ducts with fiberglass lined ducts (lining on the interior, of course), that could make a big difference.

They make a fabric connecting device for duct work. It's to help reduce sound transmision by dampening the duct pipes.

Basically you remove a length of the metal and install a this fabric sleeve in your pipes to stop vibration from traveling the length of the pipes, if you know what I mean.
That, if you can find one to install in the duct that feeds your listening room, and wrapping them should do a lot to reduce, if not eliminate sound leakage.

One thing to consider reagarding ducts is cleaning them or moisture/ mold build up. If they're fibreglass inside they could hold moisture in summertime. Also as someone who cleaned furnaces / ducts for a time, if it ain't metal you can't clean it. Any dust / hair / polen that gets in will be there premanently.

The ducts are bare metal. There is not a lot of space between the drop ceiling and the ducts. I also just poked my head up there and remembered that the LARGE return duct also runs above my space on its way to the large opening in the living room return vent.

Like I said though, the noise-transmission to the room above is not a big issue. Its just something i wanted out on the floor in case there are easy ways to reduce it.

I always half thought i could surround the outside of the duct with some insulation to help reduce transmission. Though looking at the supplies i currently have access to, I think i will likely only have enough insulation to make a few panels to hang on the front/side walls.

 

[RevMen]

They make a fabric connecting device for duct work. It's to help reduce sound transmision by dampening the duct pipes.

Basically you remove a length of the metal and install a this fabric sleeve in your pipes to stop vibration from traveling the length of the pipes, if you know what I mean.
That, if you can find one to install in the duct that feeds your listening room, and wrapping them should do a lot to reduce, if not eliminate sound leakage.

A flexible coupler will absolutely not solve the problem. In the case of cross-talk, which is the problem here, the sound travels through the air inside the duct. The reason to install a vibration break is to keep fan vibration for transmitting to building structure, which is a very different issue.

I think the easiest way to address the problem is with flex-duct. You can replace your metal duct with a flexible, lined duct. Replace whatever length of duct travels between the grille in your listening room and the upstairs grille, if you can. Hopefully that distance is at least 6 feet.

That assumes that one or both of your grilles is served by a small diameter duct of some kind. If that's not the case, or if it's a short run between the two grilles, then you'll have to get more creative and install a lined boot over one of the grilles.

Are these photos worth a thousand words?

I wish I could recognize ceiling tiles by sight, but I can't. Sorry. They do look porous, though, so they probably are at least somewhat absorptive, certainly better than bare concrete or gyp-board. I'd say to leave them for now.

I would treat your walls and add a bass-trap or two and see how that sounds. And if that doesn't get you where you want to be, you can try getting a single pack of very absorptive ceiling tiles (NRC 0.8 or more, you'd have to purchase them) and install those in key locations to see if they change the sound.

 

[noise gate]

If you pull the cieling tiles in place what are you going to put there? the ones pictured that are stacked up?

Some older cieling tiles depending on age may be full of asbestos, something to consider.

My basement space is in a concrete basement but wood framed house, so the floor above it is wood, yours is concrete if I'm folowing you right. Unless I really crank the volume it's not brutally loud upstairs, but there is no doubt to people up there that " Dad's got the tunes on"

Can you access the wall cavity in that little room? It looks like wood paneling. If you could carefully remove that and insulate those walls, then replace the paneling that surely can't hurt. That would help some for sound in the adjacent basement space.

As for the really low notes at really high volumes, That will be hard to tackle on a low budget.

I once ran a bar in a hotel, all concrete construction. At the fire escape stairwell 5 floors up you could tell what song the band was playing. I asked 3 guys I knew who owned their own professional studios what to do. Their suggestions were very expensive with absolutely no gurantees that it would do any good. We quit having live entertainment.

 

[schen]

If you pull the cieling tiles in place what are you going to put there? the ones pictured that are stacked up?

Some older cieling tiles depending on age may be full of asbestos, something to consider.

My basement space is in a concrete basement but wood framed house, so the floor above it is wood, yours is concrete if I'm folowing you right. Unless I really crank the volume it's not brutally loud upstairs, but there is no doubt to people up there that " Dad's got the tunes on"

Can you access the wall cavity in that little room? It looks like wood paneling. If you could carefully remove that and insulate those walls, then replace the paneling that surely can't hurt. That would help some for sound in the adjacent basement space.

As for the really low notes at really high volumes, That will be hard to tackle on a low budget.

I once ran a bar in a hotel, all concrete construction. At the fire escape stairwell 5 floors up you could tell what song the band was playing. I asked 3 guys I knew who owned their own professional studios what to do. Their suggestions were very expensive with absolutely no gurantees that it would do any good. We quit having live entertainment.

To piggy-back on this train of thought, have you considered replacing the paneling? You might consider not only. putting insulation into the area between the studs, but also using two layers of sheet-rock that are "decoupled" from each other as well. I suspect that this is a relatively inexpensive solution compared to many others. There are tracks that they sell which allow the attachment of the sheet-rock which decouple it from the studs. Typically it's used on the ceiling to create sound separation between apartments, but obviously can be used in a variety of applications.

The other thing that struck me was that your drawing would indicate that your office/listening space doesn't come close filling your basement, so was wondering if there's some way that you might be able to create some storage space external to the room and be able to move some of the stuff out of room to open up some space for treatments like traps. Also, I'd probably working with the "long" axis of the room to allow you to pull both your speakers and listening location away from the walls for a variety of sonic reasons. Of course, that's contingent on the "short" axis giving you enough width to work with.

Just some random thoughts and my .02 worth of course.

 

[Mark W.]

HEADPHONES




LOL Your office and mine are cousins.

 

[JoeDotCom]

thank you for all the info. the rest of the basement is all finished living space, though, it is never occupied when I am listening.

I would love to redo the paneling with drywall but it's not in the cards right now. though, the wall I share with the utility room and furnace is open on the other side, so I might throw some rock wool in there.

I saw a recommendation for google sketchup in another thread here. wow. I watched about 20 minutes of video tutorials while eating lunch, and was then able to create a mockup of my room.

basically I am stuck with this giant uncomfortable futon. the other catch is there needs to be a computer set up and my "man cave" storage in here. so a lot of junk is omitted in the drawing.

it's my goal to build bass traps and panels eventually. I will need to update this trying to show where is the concrete walls are outside of my paneling. but for reference as I'm sitting on the couch looking at stereo the concrete corner is behind the right speaker.

( yes, I did pick the first 3d model that came up when I searched for the word "standing")

what do you think. Will this work well?

Sent (and possibly poorly voice-to-text transcribed) on a mobile device.

 

[JoeDotCom]

thanks to my friend Steve, the transition has begun...

Sent (and possibly poorly voice-to-text transcribed) on a mobile device.

 

[RevMen]

That does look like it should work. If you have shelves of loose items behind you they will be a pretty good diffuser, which is what you often want behind you.

I'm a big fan of Sketchup. It's pretty amazing how intuitive it is for what you can do with it. I have a Sketchup model of my room, I should put it up sometime. Maybe start a thread for people to post their models.

 

[JoeDotCom]

That does look like it should work. If you have shelves of loose items behind you they will be a pretty good diffuser, which is what you often want behind you.

I'm a big fan of Sketchup. It's pretty amazing how intuitive it is for what you can do with it. I have a Sketchup model of my room, I should put it up sometime. Maybe start a thread for people to post their models.

Shelves: cool that is good news.

Sketchup, yah, it is awesome! Just go through the first few videos here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPkv9tRuO-c and start rocking. The fact that you can simply type in the room dimensions, object dimensions makes it crazy easy. Also i have been lucky to have been able to find all the objects i needed (record player, futon, etc) in googles archive of objects. Just some quick scaling so they match my actual dimensions and i am good to go! I would definitely be up for a thread sharing sketchups... I bet we could even share the *.skp files, so if my room is similar to "yours" you could take my model and use it as a starting point. (or better, rearrange my furniture into sonic perfection then send it back to me!)

here is a better screenshot of my goal just for fun:

 

[djnagle]

Where is the naked woman?

thanks to my friend Steve, the transition has begun...

Sent (and possibly poorly voice-to-text transcribed) on a mobile device.

 

[JoeDotCom]

she only comes out when I put on my massive attack albums.

 

[313Hooligan]

LOL awesome images, I love this section of the AK forum. I rarely smile while forum surfing.

[CRAP] [CRAP] naked sim chick. ha!

 

[JoeDotCom]

OK I have two bundles. Each bundle has 15 sheets of 16x48x2 rock wool. I am planning on using 2 sheets per panel so I can have a 4 inch thickness. I am planning to make 4 panels to start and then possibly make another 4 if this goes smoothly.

I purchased the wood and hardware at Home Depot. I went with 1x4 wood. I realize a 1x4 is actually only something like 3 1/2 inches in reality, and I am hoping the rock wool can be compresses enough, and the fabric can bow out enough for that to work OK. For the 4 panels worth of wood I used 6 pieces of 1x3 lumber. Each piece was about $1, so $6 spent there. I also purchased corner braces. They were about $5 for each 4 pack... so another $20 spent there.

Lastly I ventured into Joann Fabrics and purchased 5 yards of Sew Classic Jet Set Black. I debated buying red for about 20 seconds then wimped out and bought the black. The "bolt" of fabric is 54 inches wide (i think) which will give me enough to wrap the panel the "tall" way having enough to fold the fabric over the top and bottom of the panel and wrap all the way around the back. I estimated that it would take about 38 inches to wrap around the panel so 5 yards should be enough. fabric cost was about $25 but there seems to be a permanent %40 off coupon built into Joanns so it only cost around $17 after tax.

So, i have all my parts, now it is time to assemble. I will need to find a good evening that i can take over the garage and get geared up to handle the insulation. Just having the dusty bundles in my car when i brought them home irritated my eyes, so I am planning to wear as much protective gear as I can when i handle the rock wool.

 

[squirrelnest]

Man...I need to get motivated to work on my basement...I'm getting to many ideas reading this post.