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Could Anyone Make Some Cap Recommendations?

jgannon

Lunatic Member
Hey guys -


I want to change out the Vit Q's in my 800B at the power grids, where I have four installed at .068 uF. While the Q's gave my receiver warmth, I feel it is lacking punch and drive.

Also, I would like to know what caps you guys have in your phono sections. I have two Vit. Q's there at .01 uF along with two Russian PIO K40Y-9s. There's just too much Q in the receiver.

BTW, I am not a big fan of filling the receiver with the K40Y-9's. I tried that once and felt the receiver sounded too cold.

I have some ERO FOL's but they're rated too high at .12 uF. I went out and got them, but didn't realize that they are probably too high a value for the power grids.

ANY help you can give me would be truly appreciated.

I'd just like to know what is working for you in your Fisher gear.

Many thanks.

Gannon
 
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Experimentation is the order of the day here. Guys will tell you that Brand X will work better in this position and brand z will work best in another position. But when you put the Brand x and z in those places they sound like crap. (See ears comment below).

K-42's, Orange Drops (716P), Cornell Dublier DME's, Illinois Cap axials, Mallory Axials to start off with. For the most part they are inexpensive, fairly neutral, and will fit in most any position in the 800-B. Some guys swear by paper in oils, poly in oil, etc., which is fine by me, but my wallet has a seizure at anything more expensive than a K-40 or K42. (see the ears comment below too).

You'll have to try different one's until your ears like the sound. No two pair of ears and the auditory section of the brain are alike. And contrary to popular theory Better is not always equal to more $$$$ spent. I've heard unit's that have all cheap off the shelf caps and tubes in it sound a lot better than the same model that had shitpot load of "boutique caps, and tubes". But be advised that most times the difference (if any) is subtle, but the hit in the wallet can be substantial. Unless you have a bank account that will allow almost instant purchase of the caps you'd want to try, it's going to be a long process.

Tubes can also contribute to an amps overall sound too. And adjustments to Phase inverter pots, AC balance pots(if equipped), bias pots, and tuner alignment(if equipped) will all contribute to how it sounds. So make sure all the physical adjustments are dead on by not just ear but with scope and othr test gear that is calibrated to a standard), the tubes are in good shape (not just matched by pairs, but for dual triodes matching the sections as well as possible in the phono and voltage/tone amp tubes), clean connections, etc., 1st.

Larry
 
First, keep in mind that any newly installed capacitor takes time to break in before you can make your final decision. From what I've read, the PIO or Vit Q types take a little longer.

With this old tube gear, I factor the high internal operating temperatures into my decision. The 96P or 196P series of Sprague's Vit Q Caps are rated to 125 C.

"Vitamin Q" is a proprietary oil Spraque used in their hermetically sealed Paper in Oil (PIO) capacitors. That's it....the oil.

Other companies made very fine PIO caps, West-Cap is one of my favorites. They made a CQR series (Polyethylene in oil) that I was bowled over by. Nothing added to the sound, crystal clear in my opinion.

To clarify that statement, I'm going to use the analogy "All Glass stops the Wind, but how it lets the light through is a different story". In this analogy, Glass is the capacitor, Wind is the DC being blocked by the capacitor, the AC music signal is the Light passing through. As we all know, different materials have different refractive indexes, look at a stick in the water and see it bend.
There's your "quality of sound" analogy.

Where the capacitor is going and what kind of voltage it will be seeing must be factored into your decision. Some caps are considered "bright", some "tuby". I use these descriptions sparingly as a guide. I wouldn't use a capacitor construction considered by others to have a "tuby" or "dull" sounding in a phono stage, especially not the RIAA.

Some caps are built with extended foil to reduce inductance, some are affected adversly by temperature.

As Larry said...many opinions exist whether or not a capacitor imparts it's own sonic signature. It seems that many, but not all Electrical Engineers are of the opinion that a capacitor is a capacitor and nothing more. Based on personal experience, I feel differently. No disrespect to you Larry or what you wrote, this is a discussion I have had with other engineers. I try and keep an open mind regardless of what I've been taught.

I have only used one modern "boutique" capacitor in a phono preamp and thought it was spectacular..Mundorf's Silver in Oil. I had to try based on what I read and was impressed. But that was in a solid state/tube hybrid phono stage that doesn't get very hot at all. Besides being ridiculously expensive, I doubt they could last very long in the hot internal environment of vintage tube gear. They're also huge, so Real Estate enters into the equation.

Cost wise- The NOS vintage Vitamin Q genre aren't as expensive as their reputation suggests. I think $5 to $10 per cap isn't that unreasonable, all factors taken into consideration.

Last point, I got the impression that you may have changed a few values from the original design. I would suggest you first start by replacing any coupling/blocking or decoupling/bypass cap in question with the original value and use a construction similar to the original construction. For example, "Black Cats", "Red Devils" are PIO types not hermetically sealed. I would stick with a PIO cap in those positions.

In other words, go back to square one as best as you can. That way you can truly compare apples to apples. Even though the bottom line was considered, Fisher's engineers made their choices for a reason.

The Fisher Brand was successful and around for quite a while. This could never have been the case if their equipment didn't have a sonic edge over the competition or if there were reliability issues. Success and Longevity are two factors that led me to Fisher in the first place. I trust their engineer's designs.
 
Thanks again for weighing in, Larry. I'm hip to what you are talking about. I've read a number of threads on caps over the last year and am familiar with some of the names and the different types. And I'm also aware of, of course, the whole idea of tube rolling as having a factor in the sound, as well as the various things that have to do with the internals of the amp/receiver itself.

I guess I'm just a little exasperated between this channel imbalance with my 800B and what I feel is its lack of punch. The Qs definitely warmed thing up, but I feel at a price. I'm not running any big speakers either, and that might be part of the problem. The Wharfedale W60s have a nice sound and nice mids (they are original alnico two-way), but they are not they are not W90s which I did hear my 800B through, which had a much bigger sound running with them.

I know that all you guys out there have different Fishers, and that the different units and the particular arrangements of tubes along with the caps are going to yield different results.



Experimentation is the order of the day here. Guys will tell you that Brand X will work better in this position and brand z will work best in another position. But when you put the Brand x and z in those places they sound like crap. (See ears comment below).

K-42's, Orange Drops (716P), Cornell Dublier DME's, Illinois Cap axials, Mallory Axials to start off with. For the most part they are inexpensive, fairly neutral, and will fit in most any position in the 800-B. Some guys swear by paper in oils, poly in oil, etc., which is fine by me, but my wallet has a seizure at anything more expensive than a K-40 or K42. (see the ears comment below too).

You'll have to try different one's until your ears like the sound. No two pair of ears and the auditory section of the brain are alike. And contrary to popular theory Better is not always equal to more $$$$ spent. I've heard unit's that have all cheap off the shelf caps and tubes in it sound a lot better than the same model that had shitpot load of "boutique caps, and tubes". But be advised that most times the difference (if any) is subtle, but the hit in the wallet can be substantial. Unless you have a bank account that will allow almost instant purchase of the caps you'd want to try, it's going to be a long process.

Tubes can also contribute to an amps overall sound too. And adjustments to Phase inverter pots, AC balance pots(if equipped), bias pots, and tuner alignment(if equipped) will all contribute to how it sounds. So make sure all the physical adjustments are dead on by not just ear but with scope and othr test gear that is calibrated to a standard), the tubes are in good shape (not just matched by pairs, but for dual triodes matching the sections as well as possible in the phono and voltage/tone amp tubes), clean connections, etc., 1st.

Larry
 
First, keep in mind that any newly installed capacitor takes time to break in before you can make your final decision. From what I've read, the PIO or Vit Q types take a little longer.

With this old tube gear, I factor the high internal operating temperatures into my decision. The 96P or 196P series of Sprague's Vit Q Caps are rated to 125 C.

"Vitamin Q" is a proprietary oil Spraque used in their hermetically sealed Paper in Oil (PIO) capacitors. That's it....the oil.

Other companies made very fine PIO caps, West-Cap is one of my favorites. They made a CQR series (Polyethylene in oil) that I was bowled over by. Nothing added to the sound, crystal clear in my opinion.

To clarify that statement, I'm going to use the analogy "All Glass stops the Wind, but how it lets the light through is a different story". In this analogy, Glass is the capacitor, Wind is the DC being blocked by the capacitor, the AC music signal is the Light passing through. As we all know, different materials have different refractive indexes, look at a stick in the water and see it bend.
There's your "quality of sound" analogy.

Where the capacitor is going and what kind of voltage it will be seeing must be factored into your decision. Some caps are considered "bright", some "tuby". I use these descriptions sparingly as a guide. I wouldn't use a capacitor construction considered by others to have a "tuby" or "dull" sounding in a phono stage, especially not the RIAA.

Some caps are built with extended foil to reduce inductance, some are affected adversly by temperature.

As Larry said...many opinions exist whether or not a capacitor imparts it's own sonic signature. It seems that many, but not all Electrical Engineers are of the opinion that a capacitor is a capacitor and nothing more. Based on personal experience, I feel differently. No disrespect to you Larry or what you wrote, this is a discussion I have had with other engineers. I try and keep an open mind regardless of what I've been taught.

I have only used one modern "boutique" capacitor in a phono preamp and thought it was spectacular..Mundorf's Silver in Oil. I had to try based on what I read and was impressed. But that was in a solid state/tube hybrid phono stage that doesn't get very hot at all. Besides being ridiculously expensive, I doubt they could last very long in the hot internal environment of vintage tube gear. They're also huge, so Real Estate enters into the equation.

Cost wise- The NOS vintage Vitamin Q genre aren't as expensive as their reputation suggests. I think $5 to $10 per cap isn't that unreasonable, all factors taken into consideration.

Last point, I got the impression that you may have changed a few values from the original design. I would suggest you first start by replacing any coupling/blocking or decoupling/bypass cap in question with the original value and use a construction similar to the original construction. For example, "Black Cats", "Red Devils" are PIO types not hermetically sealed. I would stick with a PIO cap in those positions.

In other words, go back to square one as best as you can. That way you can truly compare apples to apples. Even though the bottom line was considered, Fisher's engineers made their choices for a reason.

The Fisher Brand was successful and around for quite a while. This could never have been the case if their equipment didn't have a sonic edge over the competition or if there were reliability issues. Success and Longevity are two factors that led me to Fisher in the first place. I trust their engineer's designs.


Thanks for this info heyraz. It would be great to get a little more info like this on specific caps and how people feel they sound. For instance Larry mentioned K42's and I remember audiodon IIRC mentioning, that they had a nice holographic sound in a thread I read. I remember some people being very satisfied with all K40Y-9's, but I seem to be the only person who has found them to be on the cold side.

My 800B was restored BTW, with grid resistors lowered and things like that. I don't think that anything radical was done to it to alter its sonic signature.
 
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WHat grid resistors are you using? If you changed them from the stock 330k to 220k (I think thats what they move to) you need a larger coupling cap. I think 0.068 is just enough to retain the original frequency response but a 0.1uf seems to be the common value.
 
WHat grid resistors are you using? If you changed them from the stock 330k to 220k (I think thats what they move to) you need a larger coupling cap. I think 0.068 is just enough to retain the original frequency response but a 0.1uf seems to be the common value.


Right - the grid resistors were lowered. I was hoping to use these .12 uF ERO FOLs, but the consensus is that .1 uF is about as high as you're supposed to go.

There really are alot of threads on caps. Maybe I'll just go back again and take some notes, and order some.

Is Mouser kind of like the go to place to get some? I'm aware of the uF readings, but what should the voltage be on a .1 uF cap that would go in the 800B? Similarly, is there an ideal voltage for caps in the phono section? Do they vary? I, again, know the uF ratings on the phono caps.
 
All great and worthy comments!

If I may however, channel imbalance -- as traditionally defined as relating to level -- is not something that will be resolved by changing out caps -- unless of course one is simply bad. The first step in correcting that is to determine if the imbalance is a set imbalance that exists regardless of control setting (other than the balance control of course), or whether the amount of imbalance changes as the various controls (volume, tone, etc.) are adjusted. From that information, a plan can be developed as to how to best proceed to isolate the problem.

Dave
 
All great and worthy comments!

If I may however, channel imbalance -- as traditionally defined as relating to level -- is not something that will be resolved by changing out caps -- unless of course one is simply bad. The first step in correcting that is to determine if the imbalance is a set imbalance that exists regardless of control setting (other than the balance control of course), or whether the amount of imbalance changes as the various controls (volume, tone, etc.) are adjusted. From that information, a plan can be developed as to how to best proceed to isolate the problem.

Dave

Thanks Dave. I know this in that you and Larry were both trying to patiently walk me through isolating the reason for the imbalance on another thread. I was just thinking that I'd get the caps changed out while I was getting the channel imbalance addressed with someone in NYC who really knows what he is doing, and who could test the receiver out thoroughly. But wouldn't it be great if the imbalance were due to a faulty cap?!!
 
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