Crescendo 3009s - What am I missing?

[seifreit]

Ok all you Crescendo aficionados, tell me what I'm missing. I recently acquired a set of CS3009s in pretty decent condition excluding the usual mid-bass and mid driver needing new foam surrounds. Not a big deal, refoamed many Infinitys. After the refoam, I immediately noticed the mid-bass and mid in one cabinet were not working. Hoping it might be a crossover issue as the two dead drivers share a cap and coil. Sure enough, I pull out the crossover and find the shared coil has broken the lead at the circuit board. 5 minutes later and that is fixed. So, everything is working now.

So here is my dilemma, I just can't bring myself to like them. Its not that they sound "bad", they just seem, I guess the best word is lifeless. In fairness, I have several different Kappas including Kappa 9s but I didn't expect them to compete against them. I also have RS III, RS IIIb and Quantum 3s and they all are much more musical then the 3009s. The 3009s are the first Crescendos I've owned and I've seen other Crescendos owners post about how much they like them. For me they are just " meh". Please tell me, WHAT AM I MISSING or are my expectations just too high?

 

[swechsler]

Recap? They're at least, what, 25 years old?

 

[jefferylhenr]

The performance of a multi driver speaker is a culmination of all the parts added together. How would a coil lead break all by it’s lonesome? I would ohm out every driver and compare left and right. I would also go through both crossovers as well. You should suspect either rough physical trauma or someone wandered around without proper knowledge or process in these units. They should sound awesome. There is clearly something else mucked up.

 

[seifreit]

Recap? They're at least, what, 25 years old?

I've considered that but even the RS IIIs have more life and engaging sound to them than the 3009s and that was before I replaced the much older electrolytics in the RS IIIs.

How would a coil lead break all by it’s lonesome?

I agree if the cabinets weren't in such good condition. Outward appearance of the cabinets doesn't indicate that these speakers led a hard life or got physically abused. The coil in question had become unglued from the board. I suspect that the hanging weight of it eventually fatigued the solid wire and it broke. I inspected the rest of the board and found everything else well attached.

From what I have observed, the Crescendos seem to be the "love child" of a union between Reference Five/Six and the Kappa x.1/2 series. The cabinet materials are very much like those of the Kappas and the woofers are the same between the 3009s and the Kappa 7.1s I have. They appear to cut cost mainly in the use of the img mids similar to the Reference Six and the use of NPEs throughout the crossover and sharing of components for mid-bass and mid driver crossover sections.

They should sound awesome. There is clearly something else mucked up.

That is why I feel like I am missing something. Obviously. more investigation will be done. I want to like them but I also have to admit that not every vintage Infinity I have owned has been a winner to my ears. I had RS 6000s which left me feeling the same way. I listened to them extensively against my RS IIIbs, which on paper should be a fairly close match. Both have 2 10" poly-cone woofers in series, 2" polydome mids and EMITs. They couldn't have sounded further apart. The RS 6000s ended up moving on to another owner.

 

[jefferylhenr]

What are you driving them with? And, are you biamping?

 

[seifreit]

What are you driving them with? And, are you biamping?

Using two channels of a Parasound HCA-1206, 135w@8 and 200@4. Amp never even gets warm. It's the same amp I've been driving the RS IIIs, a pair of Kappa 7.1s and Quantum 3s with and they all sound great and never really tax the amp. Of course, I'm not trying to achieve front row rock concert levels. I have considered bi-amping them with four of the channels or bridging 2 pairs of the channels for higher output to see how that works with them. The amp is a highly configurable 6 channel unit with channels 3/4 and 5/6 able to be bridged. It is a beast of an amp at over 70lbs and one of the biggest transformers I've seen.

 

[jazzmans]

Dunno, man. I'm using my crescendo 3009 again, in place of my RS IIb, and they sound great.

To be fair, I'm usually playing my magnepan 2.5R simultaniously, and the two speakers are set up like a pair of irs betas, but this is also how I used my RS IIb mostly.

your amp seems fine, the cs3009 are very efficient anyway, require much less power then the RS IIb or ren 90 to reach the same db levels.

I'd check each driver individually, and see if something is bad, or go through the crossover.

 

[seifreit]

To be fair, I'm usually playing my magnepan 2.5R simultaniously, and the two speakers are set up like a pair of irs betas, but this is also how I used my RS IIb mostly.

Thanks Jazzmans. How do they compare on their own versus the RS IIb without the Maggies in assistance?

 

[jazzmans]

The RS IIb beat them in clarity, and soundstage, but I'm getting a buzz from the RS that is either connections (I'm still using the original crappy connections) or the emims need diaphrams replaced, so they're benched atm.

When using the maggies and the infinity together, there's not enough difference to keep the RS in the loop, with the above issues.

 

[seifreit]

The RS IIb beat them in clarity, and soundstage

That's part of what I'm hearing, maybe I should say not hearing. My son stopped by earlier and I had him listen to them. He is of the same opinion as me. Together we were able to identify what we feel is lacking. Basically, it is lacking in the midrange, the, area covered by the mid-bass and midrange. They just seem dull, lacking presence, vocals are thin. Could this be attributed to the new surrounds? Do I need to be patient and let them break in before passing judgement.

 

[jazzmans]

yes.

but they are slightly thinner in the midrange then the glorious emims in the RS IIb. Nothing will change that.

Funny enough, they sound more like my Ren 80/90s (which are the H.E. Emims) then my RS IIb or my old kappa 8.1 do.

 

[432HzBob]

When i re-purposed some free mid 80’s Technics monkey coffins to become RSM’s, with RSM poly woofers, Kappa tweets and Kappa 7 XO’s
i tried a Crescendo mid, a QB mid and finally a Overture 2 mid... the Overture mids sounded much better than either of the others that sounded flat to me too. They really brought out the horns, piano and hardest of all, female vocals.
That’s all that I could do within my budget, but would some some Ren 80/90’s someday.
Good luck. Not all Infinity mids sound the same.

 

[seifreit]

The RS IIb beat them in clarity, and soundstage

they are slightly thinner in the midrange

i tried a Crescendo mid, a QB mid and finally a Overture 2 mid... the Overture mids sounded much better than either of the others that sounded flat to me too.

Seems like the consensus so far is what I am hearing is pretty much how these speakers sound. Somewhat disappointing as it seemed like a lot that has been written about them really talked them up. I may still consider a re-cap, possibly poly caps for the mids to see if it livens them up a bit.

 

[432HzBob]

Seems like the consensus so far is what I am hearing is pretty much how these speakers sound. Somewhat disappointing as it seemed like a lot that has been written about them really talked them up. I may still consider a re-cap, possibly poly caps for the mids to see if it livens them up a bit.

Recapping my Infinities helped.
I used low value PIO bypass caps on mids and Emit’s and that brought some sparkle to them without being harsh.

 

[jazzmans]

Seems like the consensus so far is what I am hearing is pretty much how these speakers sound. Somewhat disappointing as it seemed like a lot that has been written about them really talked them up. I may still consider a re-cap, possibly poly caps for the mids to see if it livens them up a bit.

I do want to reiterate, that the crescendo 3009 sounds more like my ren 80 and 90 then my RS IIb or kappa 8.1 do.

 

[seifreit]

So, while reviewing the Tech Sheet, contemplating a recap of the 3009s, I noticed the mid-bass driver is connected out of phase according to the sheet. Not unusual as I have seen reversed drivers on several other Infinitys. I wondered what would happen, how would the sound be changed if I put the mid-bass in phase with the other drivers? Pretty simple wire swap as they just have the spade connectors on them. So, I did just that and I was a bit surprised. It seems to have addressed some of the thinness in the lower midrange I was hearing. Female vocals especially seem a bit fuller. The sound overall is less fatiguing.

Now I am second guessing myself as to whether I should try a few other things and really give them a second chance. Maybe replace some of the NPE caps in the mid and mid-bass section with poly caps. I just have to figure out how to clean up the bass a bit. Still seems a bit boomy and uncontrolled for my taste. But, I've never been a big fan of ported speakers in general.