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CT-F9191: FF works great, REW struggles

marcel123

New Member
I have a CT-F9191 which had the idler clutch problem - FF and REW were completely broken. The clutch was repaired by Mark (thanks!) but now I am still having a bit of a problem.

The FF now works absolutely perfectly. The REW, however, struggles. When rewind starts on a fully played tape, it will work great, but by half-way through the rewind process it will start to slow down and soon thereafter will stop.

It does this on all tapes. REW just does not seem to have enough torque to fully rewind a tape.

I am quite a newbie at this and would appreciate any help in figuring out what the problem could be.
 
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sounds like the motor has problems, although it is possible there is an electronic fault.

you need to measure the voltage at the motor itself, first in fast forward, then in reverse to make sure the motor is being fed properly.

the orange and white wires on the transport go back to pins 3 and 4 on the RWG-048 control assembly. the control assembly may be inaccessible (maybe through the bottom iirc) but there are connectors behind the transport assembly up top that can be accessed.

The RXM-019 FF/REW motor has red and blue wires coming out of it, and they go to a black plastic holder with a row of metal pins mounted over the capstan motor and big solenoid, the white wire is connected to one metal pin, and internally that pin is connected to the next pin over which has the blue motor wire connected to it, the next pair of posts connect the orange wire and the red motor wire.

clip onto the metal pins to read the voltages between the orange and white wires.

it may turn out you need a new motor if the voltage is the same in both directions. or a rebuild of the motor could be attempted - but that is REALLY TOUCHY and risky, takes experience to even try.

edit - check the end of the thread - check / fix mechanical counter drag. kudo's to AK'er Parastat.
 
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I measured the voltage between the orange and white wires as described. It was a steady 11.5V during FF and -11.5 during REW.

Is there anything to check with regards to a possible mechanical problem (i.e. too much friction somewhere?) as opposed to a problem with the motor or electronics?

Marcel
 
all you really can do is to pop the tape out, flip it 180 degrees and restart the rewind when it's dragging, and see if the changed tape quantities on the hubs results in a faster rewind. or if the new side drags in FF.

IF it were a friction drag, i'm pretty darn sure the drag would manifest in both directions roughly equally. There is no selectively controlled braking or drag on this mechanism, i.e. something that an electronic fault would fail to release or release fully. so flipping the tape would make ff slow then...

new/replacement motor or open er up and check er out...

could be how the brushes are worn, coupled with residue between the sections of the commutator that allow unwanted sections to be energized and fight the reverse motion.
 
If I start with a fully wound tape and hit REW, the REW starts fast but by midway through the tape (with equal quantities of tape on the hubs) it has noticably slowed. It continues slowing down until about 2/3 of the way through the tape it comes to a halt and turns off. If I flip the tape over and restart the rewind, it again starts off relatively well, has slowed noticably by the time it is mid-way through the tape, and comes to a halt at around the 2/3 point.

FF powers its way through the tape flaweless regardless of what position the tape is in or how much tape is on either hub.

Where is a good place to order a new/replacement motor?
 
they have to come from donor units as best I know, other people may have found compatible new motors (shaft size, mounting holes, other dimensions & specifications)
 
Thanks Mark. One more quick question: The part number for the motor is listed as RXM-019. Mine is labeled RXM-019-C. I see someone selling a RXM-019-A from a CT-F9191. I can't find any documentation on whether there is any difference between the A, B, C variants of the RXM-019 or whether they are interchangeable. Do you know offhand?
 
Are you sure that the motor is stalling rather than the idlers slipping during rewind?

There does not appear to be any slipping during rewind. I watch the shaft of the motor and it progressively slows down as more tape accumulates on the take-up hub and eventually comes to a halt. I'm assuming that if there was slipping, I would see a discrepancy between the motor shaft motion and the rest of the mechanism.
 
i am not aware of any differences, the one i last looked at was an "A"...

go ahead and get it.
 
I have two 9191's and both exhibit the same issue. One has the repaired idler wheel from Mark and one doesn't. I finally just gave up trying to diagnose the issue and flip the tape over and use FF. Just seems like there's more drag in RW.
 
SOLVED: CT-F9191: FF works great, REW struggles

I too was having this issue after completely restoring my 9191, including the clutch (thanks Mark). After checking EVERYTHING mechanical and electrical (including a complete reel motor rebuild), I pondered what was different in rewind than F.F. and that's when I realized that, by design, there is indeed increased drag when rewinding a tape. The right reel hub is connected to the extra drag of two belts, a speed sensor, and the tape counter. The original blue grease within the counter shaft (w/worm gear) firms up over time and presents slightly more turning resistance than when new. Yes, the drag is seen in both rewind and F.F., but not equally. This is the problem.

During F.F. of a tape, the amount of "counter drag" on the motor is constant. As the take-up reel becomes larger, extra drag is continually added (at ever decreasing leverage) as determined by the supply reel hub's mechanical friction. While this drag is variable and increases, it is not great enough to stall the motor.

In rewind however, as the take-up reel (left) becomes larger and it loses leverage over the supply reel, the motor also has to contend with the extra "counter drag" at an ever decreasing mechanical advantage. This is the key. If both hubs had the exact same turning resistance (total), then the rewind and F.F. performance would be matched. But they don't.

I flushed out the counter shaft (w/worm gear) using CRC QD Contact Cleaner (not harmful to plastics) and noticed that the shaft rotated much more freely. I then added a fraction of a drop of light synthetic oil to each end of the shaft* using a toothpick. (I used the oil that separated from my Super Lube synthetic grease) Once the oil was worked in, the rewind performance was vastly improved. Previously, rewinding a 90 minute tape would sometimes result in the motor stalling right before the end of the tape. At all other times the tape would finish rewinding, but decelerate to a crawl right before reaching the end. Now, I get a consistent 74 seconds, and it looks/sounds like 98% of F.F.


*I tried running the unit with just the residual grease in the counter shaft, but I encountered squealing and the rewind performance was not much improved.
 
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Not bad.... good explanation. Faderlube squirted in to the movement sensor and counter should suffice.

A quick test would be to test disconnect the THIRD belt, going from the tape movement sensor TO the counter.
If you disconnect the second belt from the take up reel to the tape movement sensor it may shut down the ff/rew prematurely.

You might want to test this if you have the deck open.
 
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I picked up a relatively clean looking ct-f9191 last year that I'm just now getting around to fixing up and I have this exact same problem. I already have the MTF clutch fix, WJOE belt and pulley kits installed. FF works fine but REW struggles and craps out right around the middle of a tape. If I remove the belt from the tape movement sensor to the tape counter it works pretty much fine.

So where exactly should I apply lube to the tape counter? This is my first ever cassette deck refurb so I'm still learning a lot about how they work. And since this seems like a drag issue where else could this deck use lube or grease that might make it run smoother? I'm not shy about disassembly so if this thing needs a good tear-down, clean, and re-lube I'm up for it I just don't know which spots are critical.

I'm considering starting my own thread because I've got a couple of other issues I'm dealing with, too...
 
A faderlube spray flush through the entire tape counter mechanism - just literally blast it all through....

A bit of a squirt into the tape movement sensor's bearings.

There are other "clutches" (felt to nylon surfaces) on the tape hubs that you don't want to lubricate.
 
Okay, I had already put in an order for some faderlube after seeing your previous comment but I bought the needle applicator bottle, not the spray can. It hasn't arrived yet but hopefully I can still work it into the tape counter sufficiently without the aerosol. I'll update this thread with my progress in any case.

So no other places that are recommended to be lubed then?

I also plan on doing the following but I want to get the FF/REW fully functional before I move on:
  • Deoxit all switches/pots
  • Deoxit the two Play/Rec relay switches on the underside of the deck
  • Replace the light blue sanyo cap C807 with a film equivalent
  • Troubleshoot wow/flutter issue if it still remains after doing all of the above (is it possible I got a bad/uneven tire from WJOE?)
  • Replace these three lamps: Dolby, Chrome & Memory
 
I realize this thread goes back quite a few years so I hope that adding to it doesn't cause any problems. I picked up a mint CT-F9191 about 11 or 12 years ago at a yard sale for $3 - yes, three dollars! I tried it out at the time and it ran perfectly and sounded beautiful. I didn't actually need it so it's being sitting all this time doing nothing. After noticing the prices these units are currently fetching (one just sold on eBay for $1,100), I decided to see if I can put it up for sale.

It still plays tapes perfectly, FF works really well but RW doesn't do so well on certain C-90 cassettes and I'm wondering if the cassette design is a factor to be considered. For example, if I rewind a standard TDK D-90 cassette and set the counter to 000, it will run to about 528 (72.5%) when it will struggle then stop, compared to 728 for a full tape run on FF. However, when using a Reader's Digest commercial recording which also runs to 728 on FF, it will rewind the full tape without any problem, although it does slow down graduallly as it gets closer to the end. So, without testing a load of different tapes, it would appear that different cassette manufacturers perhaps use different methods and materials to reduce drag. One thing I should state is that the TDK tape had only been used to record one side and was not used again whereas the commercial one had been played a number of times. I don't know if this would have any bearing on the rewind results.

After cleaning and lubricating the transport mechanism and counter, I decided to do some voltage checks as suggested by Mark back in September, 2012 but first I removed the secondary counter belt. That didn't seem to help with the rewind of the TDK tape, unfortunately. I manually operated the middle microswitch to simulate a cassette being inserted and measured the voltage. So with no counter hooked up and no tape causing drag, measuring directly across the Red and Blue wires of the motor gave 11.30V (FF) and 11.44V (RW). Actually, I found it easier to measure between chassis ground and the motor terminals as I could jam one of my probes into one of the many holes in the chassis, so all the following readings are referenced to chassis ground.. The FF voltage at the blue wire was 12.35V and the RW (red wire) voltage was 12.44V. One thing to note is that when running RW with no tape, you only get about 2 seconds to take a reading before Stop is engaged. This is because the right hand shaft, which drives the speed sensor, is not being turned as it normally would when a cassette is in place. No such problem in FF as the sensor is constantly being driven. After hooking up the third belt again and still with no tape, the voltages were 12.41 (FF) and 12.49 (RW).

What I also noted was that when running the TDK tape, the voltages in both FF and RW dropped as the tape progressed, presumably due to increasing load on the motor. For example, FF of the TDK tape started at 12.41V and gradually dropped to 12.33V when the tape ended. On RW, the start voltage was 12.45V but dropped to 12.35V when the tape stopped at 528 (from 000). The weird thing is that when running the commercial tape in FF, the FF voltage increased from 12.26V (start) to 12.29V (end) but RW showed 12.39V (start) to 12.29V (end). Not only were the voltages inconsistent between the two brands but the typical trend seemed to vary on FF. The only consistent thing I noticed was that the RW voltage was always higher than FF but I have no idea why.

All belts and rubber surfaces seem to be in good condition and I'm assuming the clutches are working as they should as the FF and RW are okay on the commercial C-90 cassette. I have Deoxit D5 and L5 on order and will try to spray all electrical contacts. Any further advice would be very welcome.

Regards,

Al
 
I had to also clean out the counter and lubricate it before the RW would continue as fast as FF. I ran into another issue also detailed below that may help someone in the future.

I had my clutch rebuilt by @zebulon1, which came out just great. But I still could not get RW/FF at all. I noticed the motor for RW/FF was turning super slowly. It would not spin freely either when I tried to spin by hand. I had to pull the motor, connect it to my bench supply at +/-12 VDC, and just let it run for a bit while I also lubed the shaft. It eventually freed up and now spins as it should. Just in case anyone else runs into this, exercising the motor alone helped.
 
I had to also clean out the counter and lubricate it before the RW would continue as fast as FF. I ran into another issue also detailed below that may help someone in the future.

I had my clutch rebuilt by @zebulon1, which came out just great. But I still could not get RW/FF at all. I noticed the motor for RW/FF was turning super slowly. It would not spin freely either when I tried to spin by hand. I had to pull the motor, connect it to my bench supply at +/-12 VDC, and just let it run for a bit while I also lubed the shaft. It eventually freed up and now spins as it should. Just in case anyone else runs into this, exercising the motor alone helped.
 
Sounds like we have similar problems. My clutch if fine though. Trouble with the rewind/ff. Only getting 11.17v from the motor.Have been searching for a replacement but sounds like you found the solution. Pull it and clean it up. Still working well?
 
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