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CT-F9191 Restoration - No FF/REW and Other Transport Problems

spence0nasty

spence0nasty

New Member
I have a ct-f9191 that had the common FF/REW problem and I think I may have created more transport problems in the course of trying to fix it. Right now the symptom is that the capstan/flywheel doesn't start turning when the machine is powered on. I'm creating this thread both to get help moving forward and to document my problems and progress. Here's a history that led me to this point:

I've been sitting on a ct-f9191 for a while. My band is about to release our first EP as a cassette (yes, it's 2020 and we're releasing a cassette -- small labels tend to favor cassette releases these days because they're cheap to produce) so I figured I should probably get it working if I want a way to listen to my own music...

FF/REW CLUTCH REPAIR -

The deck wouldn't FF/REW and after a quick search of my symptoms on the forum I came across this thread:
https://www.audiokarma.org/forums/i...ix-ctf-8282-9191-1000-rxa-581-not-diy.292583/
So I sent my clutch off to MTF to be repaired.

WJOE BELT & PULLEY KITS -

While I had the transport disassembled I went ahead and installed the WJOE belt and pulley kits (SKUs 848367 and 420003, respectively).
http://www.wjoe.com/vintageandantiques.htm#piocf
I got my clutch back from MTF, buttoned the transport back up and I was STILL having FF/REW problems.

TAPE MOVEMENT SENSOR & COUNTER LUBRICATION -

The problem then was that FF worked fine but REW would crap out in the middle of the tape. Through trial and error I found that if I removed the belt between the tape movement sensor and the tape counter REW would start working again. I found the following thread that described my problem exactly:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...rks-great-rew-struggles.469551/#post-13989986
I ordered some faderlube to lube the tape movement and counter shafts (posts #12 & #13). Due to COVID my order was delayed so I decided to move on with other improvements until I get the faderlube in the mail.

C807 REPLACEMENT (WRONG LEAD SPACING) -

I sprayed deoxit in the front panel pots & switches and decided to replace C807. C807 is called out by MTF as a common point of failure in this thread (post #3) so I decided to preemptively swap it for a WIMA film cap:
https://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/pioneer-ct-f9191-suddenly-stops.848066/
This is where things get dicey. I ordered a cap from digikey and the lead spacing ended up being too wide to be a drop-in replacement for the tiny sky blue Sanyo cap. I got creative and bent the leads in toward the center but when I soldered it in it wasn't a perfect fit. I didn't have any lead coming all the way thru the circuit board but I was still able to get the solder to form an okay connection.

CAPSTAN STOPPED WORKING -

I left the poorly-fitting replacement cap in there and turned the deck on to test it out. It worked! I listened to one full side of a tape and turned the deck off for the night. The next day I came back, turned the power on and the capstan didn't budge. Weird. I immediately assumed the problem was my poorly fitting cap so I ordered a new one. I purchased the following WIMA with 2.5mm lead spacing this time and it dropped in like a dream.
Code: 
description               mfg. p/n                 digikey p/n
WIMA 0.22uF 63V PET   |   MKS0C032200C00MSSD   |   1928-1612-ND
Still, after replacing the cap with one that fit the capstan doesn't move. I'll start by measuring power supply voltages, etc., but I'm wondering if there's anything else here I might be missing.
 
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Capstan motor runs pretty much full time, keying off the cassette presence microswitch (RSF-017) - one of the three across the top of the cassette well.'s
It's (all three) a logic signal that does not have a lot of current going through the switch contacts to back it up.
Thus replacing these three switches across the top of the cassette well will cure a lot of strange symptoms.

from my notes (verbatim):

-------- microswitches -------------
Simulated roller microswitch: Digikey SW777-ND

Digikey catalog confirms gold contacts, and are $0.92 in 1-24 quantity.

IIAC: CT-F1000's Service manual confirms uses Simulated roller RSF-021
microswitch: Digikey SW777-ND which has an end shaped like a
little question mark.
The ctf-9191 service manual confirms the "same" microswitch, RSF-017, which
according to http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com is
officially subbed by the RSF-021.

The gold contacts are much more reliable over time, they don't carry any
real current at all.
---
DigiKey shows 0 available but Mouser has them.
Part Number 653-SS-01GL13PT for the Quick connect terminals
Part Number 653-SS-01GL13PD for Solder Terminals
Which one should I get?
answer: solder terminals
---------
 
Mark, this is embarrassing... I didn't have a tape in it... :/

Turns out I know far less about cassette decks than I even thought (and I already thought I knew nothing)! I was under the impression the capstan motor was always on, tape or no tape. I didn't realize it was keyed off that sensor. The good news is that when I put a tape in the well it works just fine! Now I'm on to the next couple of issues that I have...

There's a slight hum in the left channel that's not present in the right channel. It sounds like if you had a fan running in the next room over and you can just hear the low whirring. It's pretty low volume and only really audible during quieter passages or gaps between songs but it's enough to still bother me. It's worth noting that I still have the deck apart with the transport outside the chassis so it's possible it could be picking up some EMI but wouldn't that appear in both channels?

I've already cleaned the front panel pots/switches (although the MPX Filter switch doesn't seem do do anything). I know there are two relay switches underneath the transport that also need cleaned, would attempting that also alleviate this kind of symptom?
 
I've already cleaned the front panel pots/switches (although the MPX Filter switch doesn't seem do do anything). I know there are two relay switches underneath the transport that also need cleaned, would attempting that also alleviate this kind of symptom?
Click to expand...

Yup.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/pioneer-crazy.39250/

Cures MANY MANY ills.

index.php
 
Okay, got my faderlube in the mail today so I was finally able to lube the tape movement sensor shaft and the counter shaft. Rewind is working 100% now!

I also hit the solenoid switches with some deoxit and toggled them ~15 or 20 times each. The subtle hum is now also gone! The only thing I haven't tested now is the record functionality but I don't plan on dubbing any cassettes with this so it's pretty low on my list of priorities right now.

I still have a couple questions about this thing, though. First, the drive tire I got from WJOE seems to not be even all the way around. You can see it bouncing around a little bit in this video:
The arm upon which the drive tire is mounted is spring loaded and seems to compensate for the unevenness, though. I can't hear any audible wow/flutter from this but I still wanted to get the opinion of some more experienced eyes. Is this normal/okay?

I can also hear a clicking sound when the capstan is idling but it didn't come through in the video. I asked about lubing the transport in another thread but, Mark, you implied that it's risky if I don't know what I'm doing. The clicking is pretty quiet so should I worry about it or let it be for now? I could try again to capture it in a video if that helps.
 
Now that I've been using this thing for a couple of weeks I think my initial concern about the capstan not starting up might've been correct after all. I'd say 75% of the time I insert a cassette the capstan motor doesn't engage. I have to keep taking the cassette out and putting it back in until it starts up. I'm going to go ahead and replace the three roller switches as MTF suggested.

My VU meters don't seem to match up to one another so I'm also thinking about trying to calibrate the deck following the service manual. I found this site that sources a reference tape equivalent to the one in the ct-f919 service manual (STD-334) but they're pretty steep at $80 plus shipping:

http://www.gennlab.com/pioneer_cass.html

The service manual also suggests testing the calibrated results with test tape STD-331 so if I wanted to go by the book it would get pretty expensive. I have a Fluke 117 and a Tektronix 465, would these be accurate enough to calibrate the deck if I decide to go for it? To calibrate Dolby NR I need to be able to read -34.7dBv which is 18.4mV if my math is correct. In lieu of a signal generator I plan on using test tones from my PC run thru a preamp so I can use the volume control to attenuate it to whatever signal dB level I need, verifying the level with my oscilloscope. Is any of this worth the hassle?
 
The test tape is printed with a known intensity magnetic signal. Which will induce an expected output voltage from the heads.

The meters are better served by a thorough deoxiting of those two huge bottom chassis switches. and they are ohmmeter checked for completion.
Best practice would be to remove the switches and mechanically clean each entire contact blade.
 
Mark, are you talking about the same switches from your earlier post (#4) of this thread? I've already cleaned them with deoxit but it sounds like that's not good enough?

More history: When I got the deck originally the left VU meter wouldn't move at all. It had been sitting unused for so long that the needle was stuck somehow. I cranked the output control and it slammed into the red and, voila, it was unstuck. Since then it has always lagged behind the right channel VU meter, though, and so I figured its trim pot just needs adjusted.
 
the meter needs exercise too, pivots corrode and I HAVE recovered meters before (deoxit and full range motion off a signal generator for a few days)

deoxit is transferred to pivot as a droplet on the end of a wire.
 
Mark, another possibility is that the left channel's output is actually just a bit weaker. Couldn't that happen just due to component drift over 45 years of life? If that's the case wouldn't I need a test tape to be able to determine that?
 
Replacement of the roller switches was a success, much smoother operation now than before!

I'd say the deck is back to 99% now, anything else I decide to do to it is just for fun or just being nit-picky. Jury's still out on the test tape, I may try to deoxit the VU meters first as per Mark's suggestion but for now I'm gonna keep listening to it to see if I can even hear a difference between the L and R channel output levels.

Back to my SA-8500 restoration...
 
spence0nasty said:
Okay, got my faderlube in the mail today so I was finally able to lube the tape movement sensor shaft and the counter shaft. Rewind is working 100% now!

I also hit the solenoid switches with some deoxit and toggled them ~15 or 20 times each. The subtle hum is now also gone! The only thing I haven't tested now is the record functionality but I don't plan on dubbing any cassettes with this so it's pretty low on my list of priorities right now.

I still have a couple questions about this thing, though. First, the drive tire I got from WJOE seems to not be even all the way around. You can see it bouncing around a little bit in this video:
The arm upon which the drive tire is mounted is spring loaded and seems to compensate for the unevenness, though. I can't hear any audible wow/flutter from this but I still wanted to get the opinion of some more experienced eyes. Is this normal/okay?

I can also hear a clicking sound when the capstan is idling but it didn't come through in the video. I asked about lubing the transport in another thread but, Mark, you implied that it's risky if I don't know what I'm doing. The clicking is pretty quiet so should I worry about it or let it be for now? I could try again to capture it in a video if that helps.
Click to expand...
Spence0nasty, I noticed the same thing when I installed the WJOE belt kit. That one drive tire is definitely uneven in thickness. Everything else works great, but that idler arm boogies around like crazy, so much so that I can hear it when the unit is assembled and playing a tape! I've resisted temptation to disassemble it, due to the tendency of the e-clips to fly away and disappear, but I will now disassemble it and re-install the old tire. I'm glad it isn't just me.

Best, Keith
 
I had to push the tire into the pulley groove by squeezing it and moving around the assembly. It goes in quite a bit.
The tire is a tiny bit wider than the pulley rim.

https://www.mcmaster.com/98543A060/

Mark mentions below in post #15 the e-clips and I have a ton of spares.
PM if you need some.
 
Last edited:
e-clips can be found on the bay, both in the USA and internationally.

search for 1.5mm e-clips

edit:
2mm e-clips hold the arm on, 1.5mm e-clips hold the clutch on, 3mm & 4mm e-clips are used elsewhere in the deck.
 
Last edited:
Juva said:
can someone post a picture of where is the C807 capacitor?
Click to expand...
this is a "thread hi-jack"..., you should start your own thread. I answered the c807 question in another thread - which is WHY we encourage both a new thread as well as just ONE thread per unit and only ONE UNIT in a thread.

I have ideas as to your speed problem, but am going to wait for your to start your very own thread.
 
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