I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on a SAS/B or SAS/S for a Shure cartridge. Would love to hear from SAS/B (Boron cantilever) and/or SAS/S (sapphire cantilever) users who can provide their experience with same. This would be for a m97xe that I'd love to breath new life into.
Current JICO SAS/B users - How you like?
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LP-THORN
Super Member
I also have a m97xe for which I'm thinking of getting a sas/b. Its stylus is still in great shape but after it goes ,the sas seems to be the way to go.
Since you ask for opinions, I have experience with the sas/b on two other cartridges , the original jico mm-1 and Philips GP400 III.
Both sound great with the sas/b so I see no reason why the m97xe will not sound great too with sas/b.
It would indeed be very helpful to hear if other friends here have any experience with sas on the m97xe.
Perhaps you have heard, jico now have a nude elliptical for the m97xe, that will be a nice option too, and I guess less costly than the sas/b.
Since you ask for opinions, I have experience with the sas/b on two other cartridges , the original jico mm-1 and Philips GP400 III.
Both sound great with the sas/b so I see no reason why the m97xe will not sound great too with sas/b.
It would indeed be very helpful to hear if other friends here have any experience with sas on the m97xe.
Perhaps you have heard, jico now have a nude elliptical for the m97xe, that will be a nice option too, and I guess less costly than the sas/b.
I don’t have either Jico styli. But I have read numerous times of the SAS/B sounding bright on other Shure cartridges. With the M97xE having a drooping 8K+ response, it will likely help “tame” that tendency toward brightness. Symmetry.
I use the nude elliptical N97ED on my M97xE cartridge, and it sounds so much better than the stock bonded 2x7 elliptical.
I use the nude elliptical N97ED on my M97xE cartridge, and it sounds so much better than the stock bonded 2x7 elliptical.
Hugo65
Well-Known Member
I have the SAS/B in my V15IV. It doesn't sound bright at all, just very detailed. Alignment is crucial as is undestanding that the Jico damper requires about 50% less weight than the Shure. Mine tracks fine at 1.3g, on an SME IIIs. From all I've read about the M97xE (which I've never used or heard), it's no surprise that the Jico sounds brighter (or just plain "clearer") than the original stylus, but in a good way, after all you'll be replacing a 0.2 x 07 elliptical with a micro-ridge tip.
Particularly on the Shure V15 IV and V, there are many users of the SAS/B reporting it to be bright. Different system combinations can smooth it or reveal it.
But the M97xE is no V15 IV/V. The xE was designed to have a negatively sloped response above 8 kHz. Not the V15s (The V15VxMR is a different animal, from 1997).
But the M97xE is no V15 IV/V. The xE was designed to have a negatively sloped response above 8 kHz. Not the V15s (The V15VxMR is a different animal, from 1997).
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JP
7480 74111110101115
Do you know what the test record was for those plots?
I just re-did these for a conversation on another forum. Test record is TRS-1007 and I verified the track against my 150MLX and V15VMR. The second plot is with a 64k load which gets you relatively flat to 16kHz, though ~1.2dB down to 16kHz with 47k load isn't too bad either.
Really doesn’t matter. I’ve seen a great many FR plots of the M97xE since 1998. They all fall into a “family” of sloping plots. Many have modified those plots by tweaking the loading. Just like yours, you can level it, but not stop the falling response. That’s why I said the SAS/B May compliment the sloped response. I’ve seen quite a few FR plots of the SAS/B and it does have a rise above 14-15 kHz. Complimentary to the M97xE. Enough to level it? Don’t know.
JP
7480 74111110101115
I'm more curious about the response below the 16k roll-off as that's where there's a large discrepancy. There's not much musical content above 15k on vinyl anyway, and being in my 40's I wouldn't wouldn't be able to hear it if it were there. Being down just over a dB at 16k isn't that bad, and it doesn't stand out to me subjectively. Even the VMR will swing a bit over 1 dB in FR 1k-20k.
How do you “know” that plot rolls off at 16K? It isn’t marked.
Regardless, there is more going on in your plot than you’re willing to look at.
Also, I have quite a few cartridges that have A drooping high end; it was (is) a common trait in MM cartridges in the lower price points. That droop is audible, even though it typically occurs in the 12K-18K range. My hearing is good out to 12K per my last hearing test last year. But high end harmonics are important, and the drooping high end also affects audible harmonics.
Those cartridges I have that do not have treble droop have a very noticeable extension and clarity of treble and “air”. Night and day difference, really.
Look at the drooping (dropping) treble in your plot. Look at the 2nd harmonics. That tells a story, too:
Regardless, there is more going on in your plot than you’re willing to look at.
Also, I have quite a few cartridges that have A drooping high end; it was (is) a common trait in MM cartridges in the lower price points. That droop is audible, even though it typically occurs in the 12K-18K range. My hearing is good out to 12K per my last hearing test last year. But high end harmonics are important, and the drooping high end also affects audible harmonics.
Those cartridges I have that do not have treble droop have a very noticeable extension and clarity of treble and “air”. Night and day difference, really.
Look at the drooping (dropping) treble in your plot. Look at the 2nd harmonics. That tells a story, too:
JP
7480 74111110101115
Willing? Folks here are hilarious.
16k because when I look at the sweep in the spec-an, that's where it is, not that it can't be eye-balled on the plot though. The harmonics plots aren't inordinary compared to cartridges that are flat to 20k and beyond. What do you see that's troubling, and compared to what?
I understand that noise above ~10k gives the sense of 'air', but I can't wholesale subscribe to the notion that falling inaudible HF response has an impact on the audible range, let alone significant, though I wouldn't doubt there are edge cases where that could be true. I've been able to A/B/C a couple of these between what was being sent to a lathe, the cutter feedback, and playback of the lacquer. Of course in that sense I'm looking for what's supposed to be there and not what my preference is.
16k because when I look at the sweep in the spec-an, that's where it is, not that it can't be eye-balled on the plot though. The harmonics plots aren't inordinary compared to cartridges that are flat to 20k and beyond. What do you see that's troubling, and compared to what?
I understand that noise above ~10k gives the sense of 'air', but I can't wholesale subscribe to the notion that falling inaudible HF response has an impact on the audible range, let alone significant, though I wouldn't doubt there are edge cases where that could be true. I've been able to A/B/C a couple of these between what was being sent to a lathe, the cutter feedback, and playback of the lacquer. Of course in that sense I'm looking for what's supposed to be there and not what my preference is.
JP
7480 74111110101115
Considering I said that I didn’t see anything out of the ordinary and asked you what you saw, I think it’s pretty clear that I don’t understand what point you were trying to make. Are you going to answer the question?
Dogum
Livin' the dream, then woke up...
My experience is not directly related to OPs m97xe but follows the general consensus. I have back to back comparison of a Soundsmith RS-9U Nude CL Stylus and a Jico N-49 SAS/B Stylus fitted on a Grace f9. After break-in the Soundsmith had a broad even, uncolored spectrum while the N49 (not designed for the f9 but fits well) sounded bright but still a nice sound.
Bingo! Like I said, you are ignoring very relevant data, right under your nose.
You also didn’t bother to read what I wrote, and now you’re saying you don’t understand my point.
That’s the reason for my reply to your statement about it being “hilarious”:
So, rehashing…..
Here is what I wrote above. Seems clear to me!
JP
7480 74111110101115
Maybe when you are done with the ad hominems and deflection you’ll actually answer the question.
LP-THORN
Super Member
Could you describe the differences between stock stylus and the jico nude elliptical briefly ?
on how the V15 III 'sounds' stock... been too long ago