No it just sounds way better than the one in my old PC that I use now as a music server. I'm sure there are DAC's that sound way better than my CD player, Emotiva ERC-2.
DAC sound better than CD player?
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No it just sounds way better than the one in my old PC that I use now as a music server. I'm sure there are DAC's that sound way better than my CD player, Emotiva ERC-2.
I have a Sony UBP-X1000ES, that has a built in DAC. I originally bought it to replace a cheap DVD player that died in my basement system. It was so good that it actually blew my Oppo 105D out of the water. The Sony is now in my main system. So yes, a DAC can sound better than a CD player, if it’s a decent DAC.
Ross6860
Super Member
Maybe it's an Oppo thing? Several folks on this thread are comparing an Oppo to some other device.
I'm only suggesting this because I also have an Oppo UDP-203, and I think my Yamaha CD player sounds "better". They have different DAC chipsets (AKM vs Burr-Brown).
The Oppo offers the convenience of reading a hard drive, and WiFI, (no FLAC files for the Yamaha
) so for convenience and casual listening it's fine. For serious listening I use the Yamaha and get my ass up and change CDs (or play albums for more exercise 
).
I'm only suggesting this because I also have an Oppo UDP-203, and I think my Yamaha CD player sounds "better". They have different DAC chipsets (AKM vs Burr-Brown).
The Oppo offers the convenience of reading a hard drive, and WiFI, (no FLAC files for the Yamaha
) so for convenience and casual listening it's fine. For serious listening I use the Yamaha and get my ass up and change CDs (or play albums for more exercise ).savatage1973
Addicted Member
What is getting lost here is that the only thing that you are really hearing is the quality of the analogue output stage. I've posted this many times in other threads regarding DACs and CD/DVD/BRD/multi-drives.
A drive is a drive is a drive--be it a computer drive, CDP, DVD player, BRD player, multi-drive unit. It is a mechanical drive with a laser capable of reading physical media. They may vary in mechanical build quality and durability, but regardless, they perform one function--spin the disc and read the ones and zeros, and has no effect on sound quality. And this technology has not changed much in the last 30+ years.
A DAC is a two-part component--whether is be one incorporated into a physical drive unit, or a stand-alone unit. A DAC chipset to convert the ones and zeros (digital signal) to an analogue signal, and then an analogue pre-amp stage to bring that newly converted analogue signal up to a useable line-level analogue output.
I am not going to debate that there are differences in DAC chipsets, because there are different performance capabilities, but you can only see these on bench test equipment--you are not going to hear them.
The final analogue pre-amp/output stage is what you actually hear, and this is where the audible differences amongst different DACs and physical drive units is determined. We all know that pre-amp stages bear a huge significance in the final sound quality/characteristics--whether it be a phono pre-amp or line pre-amp. Same goes for a DAC. It may utilize a single IC chip, one or more op-amps, discrete SS components, or even tubes (or any combination thereof). This is where you hear the big audible differences.
So an "ancient" CD player with a great output stage can sound better than a brand new stand-alone DAC unit--it all just depends on that final analogue pre-amp/output stage. By the same token, a cheap $5 thrift store DVD player with a digital output can be coupled to a stand-alone DAC and sound like a million bucks, because all you are using is the drive.
People love OPPO units because of their flexibility in terms of input/output options, but they are really nothing "special" when it comes to DAC chipset and analogue pre-amp/output stage. There are many (old and new) units out there that can "best" them.
A drive is a drive is a drive--be it a computer drive, CDP, DVD player, BRD player, multi-drive unit. It is a mechanical drive with a laser capable of reading physical media. They may vary in mechanical build quality and durability, but regardless, they perform one function--spin the disc and read the ones and zeros, and has no effect on sound quality. And this technology has not changed much in the last 30+ years.
A DAC is a two-part component--whether is be one incorporated into a physical drive unit, or a stand-alone unit. A DAC chipset to convert the ones and zeros (digital signal) to an analogue signal, and then an analogue pre-amp stage to bring that newly converted analogue signal up to a useable line-level analogue output.
I am not going to debate that there are differences in DAC chipsets, because there are different performance capabilities, but you can only see these on bench test equipment--you are not going to hear them.
The final analogue pre-amp/output stage is what you actually hear, and this is where the audible differences amongst different DACs and physical drive units is determined. We all know that pre-amp stages bear a huge significance in the final sound quality/characteristics--whether it be a phono pre-amp or line pre-amp. Same goes for a DAC. It may utilize a single IC chip, one or more op-amps, discrete SS components, or even tubes (or any combination thereof). This is where you hear the big audible differences.
So an "ancient" CD player with a great output stage can sound better than a brand new stand-alone DAC unit--it all just depends on that final analogue pre-amp/output stage. By the same token, a cheap $5 thrift store DVD player with a digital output can be coupled to a stand-alone DAC and sound like a million bucks, because all you are using is the drive.
People love OPPO units because of their flexibility in terms of input/output options, but they are really nothing "special" when it comes to DAC chipset and analogue pre-amp/output stage. There are many (old and new) units out there that can "best" them.
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Amen! I improved the sound quality of the garage system's DAC by replacing its op amps with discrete FETs. Does the first sentence in my post sound familiar?
Don't forget the audible effects of the power supply design as well in terms of stiffness and noise. I greatly prefer DACs using a linear to that of a SMPS or a computer's USB port.
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savatage1973
Addicted Member
Thank God!!! Someone else actually "gets it".
In my particular case I’m going to have to disagree with your point of a CD player just reading ones and zeros having no effect on sound quality if the CD players DAC is bypassed.
The reason is I’ve tested several different CD players connected directly to my Fisher RS-Z1’s Burr Brown DAC via optical Toslink and found each player sounded noticeably different.
Connecting the Optimus CD, Panasonic DVD, PlaySyation 3, and Oppo Blu-ray player all resulted in a significantly different sound quality from each of the players digital outputs. The only variable was a different player. The Toslink interconnect and all receiver’s source direct settings and volume level remained the same during the test.
I don’t know if a different laser/transport made a difference, which wouldn’t make any sense being that they’re just reading ones and zeros unless there was a high error rate. Does the power supply have an affect on the digital output? Did the players digital optical output alter the sound; Maybe due to different manufacturers?
I thought that they should all sound identical being that the CD players internal DAC was bypassed, but they didn’t.
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sonci
Well-Known Member
Cd player is as jitterless as possible, dacs especially on spidf input have all the problems in the world trying to chase the clock on the player, eventhough modern dacs have reclocking circuits and usb input is asynchronous, personally I find old cd players better than standalone dacs.
I know people that use dacs out of a cd player without even trying the analog out of a cd player..
I've also noticed that the same dac sounds better out of a cd player than out of a pc..
I know people that use dacs out of a cd player without even trying the analog out of a cd player..
I've also noticed that the same dac sounds better out of a cd player than out of a pc..
dewdude
High on resolution.
Look...DACs sound different. There are many many reasons for why one DAC sounds different than another. There are two main types of DACs in use...R2R and delta-sigma/oversampling.
The quality of an R2R dac depends on a lot of stuff. The quality of an oversampling dac depends on the quality of it's delta-sigma modulation from PCM. Both are dependent on the quality of the analog circuits after wards. The quality of oversampling DACs over the last 5 to 10 years has advanced enough that it's almost not worth considering an older DAC. The AKM chip in my previous DAC was all the rage when it came out. It's been bested by just about everything else how.
This is somewhat like a tuner analogy I made. It doesn't matter if your tuner is manually controlled by a tank circuit or if it's controlled using digital oscillators; what matters is the quality of the demodulator and analog circuits.
You can nitpick about what causes it and what doesn't. The results I've found have been very surprising and boils down to things like user error or hidden processing one didn't know about. Jitter matters...but a CD player can suffer from it. There's a lot going on in a CD player..the data isn't just on the disc..but it's broken up, interleaved, scrambled...the player has to read all this data, apply FEC, and unscramble the data. It does all of this in realtime. It has mechanisms that focus on audio out than error-free read.
The quality of an R2R dac depends on a lot of stuff. The quality of an oversampling dac depends on the quality of it's delta-sigma modulation from PCM. Both are dependent on the quality of the analog circuits after wards. The quality of oversampling DACs over the last 5 to 10 years has advanced enough that it's almost not worth considering an older DAC. The AKM chip in my previous DAC was all the rage when it came out. It's been bested by just about everything else how.
This is somewhat like a tuner analogy I made. It doesn't matter if your tuner is manually controlled by a tank circuit or if it's controlled using digital oscillators; what matters is the quality of the demodulator and analog circuits.
You can nitpick about what causes it and what doesn't. The results I've found have been very surprising and boils down to things like user error or hidden processing one didn't know about. Jitter matters...but a CD player can suffer from it. There's a lot going on in a CD player..the data isn't just on the disc..but it's broken up, interleaved, scrambled...the player has to read all this data, apply FEC, and unscramble the data. It does all of this in realtime. It has mechanisms that focus on audio out than error-free read.
First of all you need to compare same source - like playing CD and playing files ripped from THE SAME CD. Otherwise the difference in sound is likely caused by different source. High-res sources almost a;ways universally sound better on any player/DAC.
Oppo players worked best with high-res sources - DVDA, BD, SACD. Their CD playing capabilities were not great until 205 model. Only that one can provide good sound quality for low resolution source like CD using one of digital filters options available in it - "Corrected Mini Phase Fast".
Oppo players worked best with high-res sources - DVDA, BD, SACD. Their CD playing capabilities were not great until 205 model. Only that one can provide good sound quality for low resolution source like CD using one of digital filters options available in it - "Corrected Mini Phase Fast".
While both use 5532 op amps in the analog stage, the Oppo uses a switch mode power supply vs an R-core fed linear in the D100. I've found that power supplies can most certainly make a difference.
mjw21a
Super Member
Absolutely. So good that a CD rip sounds close to vinyl playback and I can only be bothered with vinyl for the overall experience rather than sound quality. Likewise if I rip vinyl using my Schiit JIL and playback using JRIVER through my DAC there's no audible difference to my ears between the original and the recording apart from a lower noise floor (I process using ClickRepair).
I will eventually rip all of my LP's. The Gieseler GroB DAC is a very musical and analog sounding DAC. I believe the secret is in the TOTL Jensen output transformers and Kraftwerk linear power supply. I also upsample to DSD which to me sounds a little smoother, with wider sound stage.
I do also use a 16x TDA1543 DAC with my Denon DN-500BD Mk2 player in my second system. Far more natural sounding than without it with more realistic sound stage. Bass is a little soft though everything else is so good with it that's easily forgiven.
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Snuck
Active Member
So far I tried out, with a lot of high qualities dacs, the best sound I could get was with nvidia hdmi....
If you find out a decent high end cd player, your dac will be useless and it'll stop bringing a lot of noise on the line. I used to like dacs, but honnestly, they just don't deserve it. They're too poorly designed compare to what they should be. A good cd player is less expensive and will last much longer if not forever if you can grab a second laser.
Unless you really pay tons of money, as in more than 2k range I didn't explore.
Do not forget the k2 architecture which kick off so many dacs nowadays, is old, very old.
If you find out a decent high end cd player, your dac will be useless and it'll stop bringing a lot of noise on the line. I used to like dacs, but honnestly, they just don't deserve it. They're too poorly designed compare to what they should be. A good cd player is less expensive and will last much longer if not forever if you can grab a second laser.
Unless you really pay tons of money, as in more than 2k range I didn't explore.
Do not forget the k2 architecture which kick off so many dacs nowadays, is old, very old.
sonci
Well-Known Member
Can you elaborate? What k2, what dacs?
Snuck
Active Member
I tried out a lot of dac, especially the asus essence series, with the tweaking with muses, having up to 11 muse chips in. And a lot of others Dacs, including some teac or naim v1 and honnestly, okay they're good, fine with that. But they're so expensive, the build quality isn't really great especially they'll depends on how long they'll be supported on windows, I noticed the asus already had issues and some bugs that was making me worry over the years.
In my opinion, they're a trend, it's good that there's a look out for technology but they're so expensive. Especially that nvidia have hdmi sound and I noticed that despite it wasn't high in specs (the rates of frequency and bits), it was kinda good honnestly. And it was integrated in a gpu. The dac requires you to get also usb cables, really, they do. I made a review of the asus essence on this site. But removing them, a lot of noise in my system vanished and sound was not as good but almost as good. And while it was fully upgraded, by that I mean I tried out a lot of fuses and such. I love to tweak.
However, they don't beat a fine cd platine with some sorbothane feets. Despite, the cd players are like thirty years old easily. If you achieve to have a stable cd player, you'll have really a lot of noise reduction. I even think to make a lil steel circle to go over the cd as they do for very high end cd players. Also, the k2 interface is the base of what's called an xrcd nowadays, those I haven't try however, but it was designed 30 years ago if not a bit more and it totally destroy the noise made by the transformation between digital and analog, and also jitters. And it was thirty years ago, nowadays, we try to reduce jitters to the most. Some technics platines are using them, the moderns ones but their prices are really huge and it's not the full technology, and they got it because Matsuhita used the own the Japan Victor Company. The difference it makes isn't tremendous details, it's simply natural, with very few noise and it's hard to go back to others kinds of dacs after that.
I just regret that they sell dacs a tons when honnestly, if you wanna have chips that you pay like 12 euros (the entry of muse for example) into a commercial, most of the time, you gotta pay more than a thousand euros. The profits they do is really huge. And chinese hifi is slowly growing, because they don't really care for licenses, and they do less profits first unlike others companies, and when they'll be there, remember what happened with the bikes over the world in the 80-90s? It just looks like it's gonna start over, not yet, because they're careful, but it'll grow and eat a lot of parts.
In my opinion, they're a trend, it's good that there's a look out for technology but they're so expensive. Especially that nvidia have hdmi sound and I noticed that despite it wasn't high in specs (the rates of frequency and bits), it was kinda good honnestly. And it was integrated in a gpu. The dac requires you to get also usb cables, really, they do. I made a review of the asus essence on this site. But removing them, a lot of noise in my system vanished and sound was not as good but almost as good. And while it was fully upgraded, by that I mean I tried out a lot of fuses and such. I love to tweak.
However, they don't beat a fine cd platine with some sorbothane feets. Despite, the cd players are like thirty years old easily. If you achieve to have a stable cd player, you'll have really a lot of noise reduction. I even think to make a lil steel circle to go over the cd as they do for very high end cd players. Also, the k2 interface is the base of what's called an xrcd nowadays, those I haven't try however, but it was designed 30 years ago if not a bit more and it totally destroy the noise made by the transformation between digital and analog, and also jitters. And it was thirty years ago, nowadays, we try to reduce jitters to the most. Some technics platines are using them, the moderns ones but their prices are really huge and it's not the full technology, and they got it because Matsuhita used the own the Japan Victor Company. The difference it makes isn't tremendous details, it's simply natural, with very few noise and it's hard to go back to others kinds of dacs after that.
I just regret that they sell dacs a tons when honnestly, if you wanna have chips that you pay like 12 euros (the entry of muse for example) into a commercial, most of the time, you gotta pay more than a thousand euros. The profits they do is really huge. And chinese hifi is slowly growing, because they don't really care for licenses, and they do less profits first unlike others companies, and when they'll be there, remember what happened with the bikes over the world in the 80-90s? It just looks like it's gonna start over, not yet, because they're careful, but it'll grow and eat a lot of parts.
if you do any CD ripping to HD, be sure to back up as you go. Have a NAS drive with over 6500 CDs on it all organized by music type. I got about 25% complete and the HD crashed. with no back up had to start over from square 1 (square zero?)......just a reminder.......from the school of hard knocks.......
as for DACs vs. CD D to A conversion, and which one is better, it really depends on how old or new the CD player is, what level of DAC is used, and how accurate the transport is......
as for DACs vs. CD D to A conversion, and which one is better, it really depends on how old or new the CD player is, what level of DAC is used, and how accurate the transport is......
300man
Super Member
So Oppo changed internal DACs from the 83SE to the 93? My 83SE Nuforce has 2 Saber DACs onboard the one feeding the RCA out jacks is a Saber ESS 32 bit Ultra DAC...sounds pretty good to me.
I’m pretty sure it’s because yours is the Special Edition Nuforce the regular 83 does not have Sabre dacs , your 83se came along before the 95 105 205 so it’s possible that it sparked the trend to have a lower end model and there higher end offerings with the higher end offering the better dacs . I could be wrong here though .
Audiofreak71