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Damping Factor/ WPC

I have Crown macrotech 5002VZ sometimes but mainly QSC powerlite 4.0 on my 15inch L'acousatic subs....I usually have the crowns after I have repaired or serviced them (our sound company has 72 of them)
The Crown has a damping factor of 1000, and the QSC has a damping factor of 500.
I have noticed the QSC has a more rounded and resonant bass sound, whereas the Crown has a more linear and even bass sound which sounds like it has more sustain, now the interesting part is even though these amplifiers have the same sensitivity, I always seem to end up running the Crown about 2-3db hotter than the QSC for what sounds to me like a much cleaner and very musical bass response.....
This seems to fit with what some guys have been posting here......I found it quite interesting to read this thread, Ive never thought about damping factor before, but now I have.......:thmbsp:

I would suggest that the Crown amp is just a lot better amp and that DF had absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, if you do the math, I believe you'll find that there's hardly a dime's worth of difference between them, at least in regards to DF.

You might even ask Nelson Pass, I believe he knows something about powerful amps and the need for Damping Factor.

Best Regards,
TerryO
 
I would suggest that the Crown amp is just a lot better amp and that DF had absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, if you do the math, I believe you'll find that there's hardly a dime's worth of difference between them, at least in regards to DF.

You might even ask Nelson Pass, I believe he knows something about powerful amps and the need for Damping Factor.

Best Regards,
TerryO


Quite obviously the Macrotech is the better amplifier, I dont need to ask anybody about powerful amps, or why they have the damping factor they do...
I diagnose repair and service my Crowns, I understand the topology. I am not new to, or "wowed" by powerful amplifiers, they are a tool for my trade and I just happen to be a big fan of the Macrotechs performance....

Best regards? I doubt it.......
 
Quite obviously the Macrotech is the better amplifier, I dont need to ask anybody about powerful amps, or why they have the damping factor they do...
I diagnose repair and service my Crowns, I understand the topology. I am not new to, or "wowed" by powerful amplifiers, they are a tool for my trade and I just happen to be a big fan of the Macrotechs performance....

Best regards? I doubt it.......

I'm sorry if my post seemed offensive and, given your experience, it could certainly be taken that way. For that, I sincerely apologize.

However, I thought that you were attributing the sonic difference between your amps to a higher Damping Factor, which a number of people believe is a very, or perhaps "the most", important feature of any amp.

Best Regards (and I mean it),
TerryO
 
I agree with Nelson...er...Terry: The sonic difference between those two amps is due to design basic difference between these amps which have to do with both the topologies chosen, and the size of the power supplies, among other things. I doubt very much that it has anything to do with the difference in the damping factor, unless you are connecting your speakers with 3" copper pipes.

That damping factor difference represents a difference of something along the lines of ~0.01 ohms in output impedance. And I guarantee that your speaker cables have substantially more resistance than this.
 
I'm sorry if my post seemed offensive and, given your experience, it could certainly be taken that way. For that, I sincerely apologize.

However, I thought that you were attributing the sonic difference between your amps to a higher Damping Factor, which a number of people believe is a very, or perhaps "the most", important feature of any amp.

Best Regards (and I mean it),
TerryO

No I was not attributing the sound to the damping factor at all, it would seem that we actually agree.......I guess it could have read the other way if you had your sarcasm meter on the wrong setting.....

I agree with Nelson...er...Terry: The sonic difference between those two amps is due to design basic difference between these amps which have to do with both the topologies chosen, and the size of the power supplies, among other things.


Absolutely, the only thing the two amps have in common? The fact that they are amplifiers.........There is a fairly large sonic difference between the two......no suprises there......
 
I used to look at the specs of my amps, a restored and upgraded Pioneer Spec 2 and a restored/upgraded Bose 1801 and think I really needed to get them upgraded because the damping factor was "only" 50 and I had read the specs of newer amps that was much higher - so surely my amp did not have full control of the speaker.
Started researching it and read a bunch of good articles pretty much saying it is a really over hyped rating and going into detail about it.
Funny how after I did the research I no longer cared about that 50 number.
 
I used to look at the specs of my amps, a restored and upgraded Pioneer Spec 2 and a restored/upgraded Bose 1801 and think I really needed to get them upgraded because the damping factor was "only" 50 and I had read the specs of newer amps that was much higher - so surely my amp did not have full control of the speaker.
Started researching it and read a bunch of good articles pretty much saying it is a really over hyped rating and going into detail about it.
Funny how after I did the research I no longer cared about that 50 number.

I bet that your amps even sound pretty nice. For many years, I always looked for the DF spec on an amp. Finally, and it took a long time, reality set in and I realized that it didn't make much, if any, difference.

It was like losing an old, trusted and dependable friend,
but I've managed to move on...
:tears:

Best Regards,
TerryO
 
Since my math has seemed to have caused some controversy, I thought I might chime in to the discussion with my experiences.

When I first started out in the audio hobby as a teenager into car audio, I read all the magazines I could get my hands on and fully bought into needing the highest possible damping factor. I went out and bought very good amplifiers from Rockford Fosgate, Precision Power, ADS, Linear Power and a host of other top notch brands. Most sounded excellent. Very tight and controlled bass and excellent sound, in general.

When I got into home audio, my first few projects were subwoofer builds based on knowledge I had gained on the basslist from some of the wisest audio fanatics I have ever had the pleasure of conversing with. I felt like I was back in 1950 exchanging letters with James Lansing, Paul Klipsch, and the like. I was 18-25 years old and holding conversations with the likes of Ken Kantor of NHT, Dan Wiggins of Adire Audio, Ray Wagner of eminence, and Terry Olson of 3M ( I presume he was from 3M based on his love of Bondo) and a host of other wildly knowledgeable, witty and friendly gents. At the time, there was a definite positive vibe towards pro amplifiers, so when I built my Shiva subwoofers, it seemed to be only natural to choose a pro amp to power them. They were very attractive to me, they were well built, sounded good (generally), and best yet, they had a high DF which was absolutely critical for good control, right?

I got a couple of good deals on Crown's, Crest's, and QSCs, swapped them in and out. The Crown was the one I kept and with the money from selling others, I decided to buy a pair of 100w class A monoblock amps (it could have been a Norman Thagard design that was published in one of the old audio rags) from a local. The damping factor was not nearly as high as the crown, but when I connected my subwoofers to these amps, the bass response was subjectively signficantly better. Tighter, deeper, and generally of noticeably better sound quality. How could this be? I think the crown was on the order of 4-5x higher damping factor (possibly more). At the time, I bought into whatever might explain it from some audiophile friends. "The Class A amps have more current!" or "The Class A amps have much less distortion!". I received a number of answers that were nothing short of completely uneducated guesses.

The next few years were filled with examples of amps that seemed to defy the higher damping factors having much better and tighter bass. There were many cases where the higher DF did have better bass, many where they clearly did not. Not really knowing how to explain my experiences led me to asking the basslist members about their experiences and in one of the first replies, I got my answer. The series resistance of the speaker wire, even when very low, was still in most cases, an order of magnitude greater than the output impedance of the amp. What did this mean to me? Well, as you can see in my math, it proved that in the real world, by time you hit the terminals of the speakers, the differences between ultra high DF amps, high DF amps, and something with middle of the road DF is virtually null. My experience with literally many dozens of amplifiers coupled with the math had satisfied the uncertainty of my experiences. I came to the realization that while damping factor can have an audible effect when it starts getting very low, that audible effect isn't necessarily going to be in the negative direction.

As Terry has tried to emphasize, there is no doubt that many of you have experienced improved performance with a higher DF, you can be reasonably sure that you just have an amplifier that sounds better and it's very likely the improvement can be attributed to something other than DF.

FWIW, it took me a few more years to figure out that THD level and sound quality have absolutely no correlation, so you could say I'm a slow learner.
 
DF=overrated spec much of the time. I use tube amps and in theory my DF is equal to 1.
Off topic- and immature- but once I was perusing eB*y and in the specs for an amplifier was 'Dumping Factor':D
 
The Crown was the one I kept and with the money from selling others, I decided to buy a pair of 100w class A monoblock amps from a local. The damping factor was not nearly as high as the crown, but when I connected my subwoofers to these amps, the bass response was subjectively significantly better. Tighter, deeper, and generally of noticeably better sound quality.
.....Dnewma, I think damping factor takes a back seat to headroom all day long concerning amps pushing subs....as you told me in the PM, those 100 watt monoblocks weighed 70-80 lbs apiece....a whole Crown K2 weighs 38....I absolutely loved what K2's would do for full-range speakers with a Mac pre-amp, but I've never cared for K2's on low stuff....kind of boomy and splatty at times, and had the slightest glow of muddiness that just wouldn't blend even with phase knobs searching....

.....these 15's in sealed boxes I've got, now blend MUCH better than when I was using a K2 on them, and the system is now much better to listen to....don't laugh, but I'm using two channels of an MC126 to push the 15's....that's a whopping 80 watts rms per channel, but the 15's blend so much better now, and the part is there, to the bottom....the wattage is fine for now, I don't mess with thunderous levels anyway....reference is reference....if speakers only sound "good" when they're exploding ear drums, you need to start over, imo.....

.....McIntosh amps are underrated anyway, so I figure I've got right at 100 watts with power-guard on each 15....I could fix the 15's quite nicely with a pair of MC501's, but I've already talked myself out of that 3-4 times.....

.....a vintage McIntosh SS pre-amp up to snuff, sending to a Crown K2 up to snuff, pushing mains that are up to snuff, should be heard....

.....sorry to crap the thread, but pro amps got about as much play as damping factor....I'd say go with weight and headroom on pushing low stuff....costs a bit more, but there's a good reason for that....oh yeah, to you guys who love to bridge pro amps in barns pushing subs, that's where it needs to be done :D.....
 
.I'd say go with weight and headroom on pushing low stuff....costs a bit more, but there's a good reason for that....oh yeah, to you guys who love to bridge pro amps in barns pushing subs, that's where it needs to be done :D.....

Headroom...yeah, that's why I use pro amps bridged at 2.8kW each on my subs.

Funny how perceptions work because for me it's just opposite. I think my Crown CE4000s work great for subs but not so good for full range. The reason I make this opinion is because CE4000 and K2 are both same switching output stage topology; Crown's BCA design, sometimes I think Crown calls it Class I.
 
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Mulester, the main point I was trying to convey is that I have found no correlation between high DF, low DF, and medium DF with subjective sound quality. It's difficult to predict which is going to sound the best.

I never tested the 100w mono blocks for power or stability to low impedances. I wouldn't assume anything more than 3dB of headroom which was well short of the headroom provided by the crowns output capabilities.
 
Mulester, the main point I was trying to convey is that I have found no correlation between high DF, low DF, and medium DF with subjective sound quality. It's difficult to predict which is going to sound the best.
.....yes, I saw that and I agree....I just couldn't help but notice you preferred 100w 80 lb monoblocks to a pro amp....pro amps produce a lot of watts that can be claimed as headroom, but it's not the kind of amplifier headroom I want for subs or even these 15's....then again, I guess we all hear differently, and audio preference is a personal thing directly relating to how far up the ladder we feel we've climbed.....
 
Headroom?

Some of you are gonna hit your head on a low beam if you don't have enough headroom.

Else, buy bigger caps.

Ok, I'm joking around here but let me say one thing:


As for the old timers here never cranking up a sub

Agreed. I'm a young timer and the old timers invented cranking it up.

:music:

Hell, every time my mom ain't home and I visit my dad... Damn he plays it loud.

:tresbon:


Dampening factor is still the marketing gimmick for car audio? I thought it died in nineteenninetysix.
 
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Headroom?

Some of you are gonna hit your head on a low beam if you don't have enough headroom.

Else, buy bigger caps.

Ok, I'm joking around here but let me say one thing:




Agreed. I'm a young timer and the old timers invented cranking it up.

:music:

Hell, every time my mom ain't home and I visit my dad... Damn he plays it loud.

:tresbon:


Dampening factor is still the marketing gimmick for car audio? I thought it died in nineteenninetysix.


The idea of dampening factor died along with the inventor of it when they tried to dampen a tube amp with 800v. ZAP!
 
He was being ironic.

Right whoru99? :D


Actually, I do use them in my barn. A city barn (garage), that is. I'd be deaf if I still had that stuff in my livingroom. Somewhere North of 8kW driving roughly 100/dB/m speakers in a roughly 2,200 cu. ft. room is pretty intense. Really hard for me to stay out of the throttle on that system. At least out in the barn I don't use it too much. :)
 
Since my math has seemed to have caused some controversy, I thought I might chime in to the discussion with my experiences.

When I first started out in the audio hobby as a teenager into car audio, I read all the magazines I could get my hands on and fully bought into needing the highest possible damping factor. I went out and bought very good amplifiers from Rockford Fosgate, Precision Power, ADS, Linear Power and a host of other top notch brands. Most sounded excellent. Very tight and controlled bass and excellent sound, in general.

When I got into home audio, my first few projects were subwoofer builds based on knowledge I had gained on the basslist from some of the wisest audio fanatics I have ever had the pleasure of conversing with. I felt like I was back in 1950 exchanging letters with James Lansing, Paul Klipsch, and the like. I was 18-25 years old and holding conversations with the likes of Ken Kantor of NHT, Dan Wiggins of Adire Audio, Ray Wagner of eminence, and Terry Olson of 3M ( I presume he was from 3M based on his love of Bondo) and a host of other wildly knowledgeable, witty and friendly gents. At the time, there was a definite positive vibe towards pro amplifiers, so when I built my Shiva subwoofers, it seemed to be only natural to choose a pro amp to power them. They were very attractive to me, they were well built, sounded good (generally), and best yet, they had a high DF which was absolutely critical for good control, right?

I got a couple of good deals on Crown's, Crest's, and QSCs, swapped them in and out. The Crown was the one I kept and with the money from selling others, I decided to buy a pair of 100w class A monoblock amps (it could have been a Norman Thagard design that was published in one of the old audio rags) from a local. The damping factor was not nearly as high as the crown, but when I connected my subwoofers to these amps, the bass response was subjectively signficantly better. Tighter, deeper, and generally of noticeably better sound quality. How could this be? I think the crown was on the order of 4-5x higher damping factor (possibly more). At the time, I bought into whatever might explain it from some audiophile friends. "The Class A amps have more current!" or "The Class A amps have much less distortion!". I received a number of answers that were nothing short of completely uneducated guesses.

The next few years were filled with examples of amps that seemed to defy the higher damping factors having much better and tighter bass. There were many cases where the higher DF did have better bass, many where they clearly did not. Not really knowing how to explain my experiences led me to asking the basslist members about their experiences and in one of the first replies, I got my answer. The series resistance of the speaker wire, even when very low, was still in most cases, an order of magnitude greater than the output impedance of the amp. What did this mean to me? Well, as you can see in my math, it proved that in the real world, by time you hit the terminals of the speakers, the differences between ultra high DF amps, high DF amps, and something with middle of the road DF is virtually null. My experience with literally many dozens of amplifiers coupled with the math had satisfied the uncertainty of my experiences. I came to the realization that while damping factor can have an audible effect when it starts getting very low, that audible effect isn't necessarily going to be in the negative direction.

As Terry has tried to emphasize, there is no doubt that many of you have experienced improved performance with a higher DF, you can be reasonably sure that you just have an amplifier that sounds better and it's very likely the improvement can be attributed to something other than DF.

FWIW, it took me a few more years to figure out that THD level and sound quality have absolutely no correlation, so you could say I'm a slow learner.


Good times, mate, good times!

But, uh, I can assert without hesitation that you were a much better pen pal than Jim Lansing was in 1950...

-k
 
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