Deep Dive: The Porsche 550 Revival Lives
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That's true the 914 and 24 were not that great I think the 24 was mostly Audi and the 14 was a lot VW and the article mentions the possibility of a common VW, Porsche. Audi
platform in this instance it will probably cost to much to sell in any great numbers .
especially if VW and Audi have similar product or it is priced to close to the Boxter.
platform in this instance it will probably cost to much to sell in any great numbers .
especially if VW and Audi have similar product or it is priced to close to the Boxter.
grillebilly
Empty Head
The 914 was the best handling car I ever drove back when they were in production. I can only imagine what a 914-6 would be like. :scratch2:
Sandy G
Retired Member
Rotsa Ruck w/THAT...Too bad, too. Porsche could/SHOULD bring out a "Cheap 'n' cheerful" car to bring younger, less well-heeled buyers into the flock, & hopefully move 'em up in the line as they get older & wealthier..Volkswagen Group overall sorta has a problem in that regard in this country, anyway, IMHO.
I would like to see them remain more true to the original 550 design...it is just so classic, simple and refined.
Modern Porsche designs are refined but not simple like the 50s and 60s were. They are classy but not classic...maybe not old enough yet. Preston
True, a good mid engine design without all the power accessories and IMO, excessive computer control, lighter weight chassis (although water cooling extracts a weight penalty compared to air cooled) meaning needing a bit less power. Couple that with a normal fast 5 speed manual/autostick.
In terms of simplicity, no, we're not going to be able to go back before airbags, belt systems, maybe power seats, air (although I suppose they could delete that), and sound system.
Can they do it by going smaller, yes, but the issue is how small without compromising safety. They'll probably have to go cross platform with VW in order to amortize the development costs, maybe even have to use a Non-Porsche engine.
The 914/6 can handle a bit better than stock, but when you start adding more power with better flat-6 engines, then you have to start improving the suspension (struts, shocks, roll bars) and stiffen the chassis a bit more. The major advantage it has is a very light chassis and low polar moment of inertia (mass concentrated toward center of car). It is no coincidence that the 914/6 and 914 have scored TTOD about 90% of the time at the annual Porsche Parade Autocrosses. The nice thing is hearing that Flat-6 whine instead of a VW type 4-cyl.
Well, you have to pay something to play, and most of the time you do get pretty good engineering. Honda dumped their S2000, the BMW Z4 starts at $48K, The Audi TT/TTS series starts at $39k and goes to $56K+. The MB SLK runs from $48-68K. The Nissan 370Z starts in the mid $35K level (ugly IMO), and the Miata is not in the same class although a fun car.
Domestic cars such as the Mustang, Camaro, Corvette may offer a better value but in general are pretty heavy although with a lot of HP to compensate.
The real issue is whether Porsche wants to build the car and price it lower than current levels. There is something to keeping your price range and "exclusivity" via price and being a sports car company. If they built an inexpensive sedan or sports car, some/most would feel that would cheapen the brand. The Boxster and Cayman, as capable as they are currently, will always be kept in a generally lower tier than the 911. Its fairly well known that if given sufficient HP and further development (re: racing) the Mid-engine Boxster and Cayman could ultimately out-perform the 911 platform. But the 911 is iconic and represents the Porsche brand, like it or not.
Currently, the glut of used Boxsters from the early 2000's and the down economy has the used Boxster market very soft - a great used 2000-2005 Boxster/Boxster S could be had for $14-25K - I always say that for the price of a boring econobox, you could be driving a nice sports car and have pretty decent storage, sans 2 extra seats. Not sure if Porsche would want to try to invade that lower price range only to see those cars in 5-8 years really devalued if the owners aren't in it for the long haul with Porsche.
pjsjr
Playing Around
The 550 line up for Porsche was built for racing...the factory first and wealthy independents/enthusiasts second. They were truly giant killers...the RSK competed and did well in F1...and are responsible, in part, for the Porsche legend in racing, along with the likes of the 904, 906, 934, 935, 917, 962 and others.
Porsche dominated most of the racing venues that they entered, amazing for a small independent company, until the sanctioning bodies began to change rules and regulations that classified the race cars making it difficult and expensive for Porsche to stay competitive.
After Porsche's failed attempt in Indycar racing 9(late eighties) the factory withdrew from racing to concentrate on the production line and support independent teams. The Porsche research and development facility in Weissach, Germany is second to none and does work for many of the major names in automotive manufacturing. IIRC they have done work for Audi and helped with the TDI Le Mans race cars and many others but can not share in the spotlight.
I see that the factory is back at Le Mans this year for a shot at the overall victory the LMP1. http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutpor...lang=none&pool=international-de&id=2011-06-30
I glad they're back, hope they do well, such a rich and storied past deserves to live on. Preston
Porsche dominated most of the racing venues that they entered, amazing for a small independent company, until the sanctioning bodies began to change rules and regulations that classified the race cars making it difficult and expensive for Porsche to stay competitive.
After Porsche's failed attempt in Indycar racing 9(late eighties) the factory withdrew from racing to concentrate on the production line and support independent teams. The Porsche research and development facility in Weissach, Germany is second to none and does work for many of the major names in automotive manufacturing. IIRC they have done work for Audi and helped with the TDI Le Mans race cars and many others but can not share in the spotlight.
I see that the factory is back at Le Mans this year for a shot at the overall victory the LMP1. http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutpor...lang=none&pool=international-de&id=2011-06-30
I glad they're back, hope they do well, such a rich and storied past deserves to live on. Preston
It could easily be said that a VW sounds like an early Porsche, since Dr. Porsche designed the VW Bug...
Pay to play. What's the game? Car and driver just claimed that Mustang GT outhandles everything under $40k except Miata and Evolution but was still significantly faster around their test track.
VW GTI and 370Z finished 4th and 5th in their 5 car shootout.
Powerful front engine, rear drive, good tires, shocks and brakes is all it takes. That's all it ever took. Everything else is just pissing in the wind.
Dominated? I don't think so. The 935 owned GTP for what, the best part of a couple of decades. :yes:
The "game" as played by Porsche was never being the fastest or pulling the most G's on the skid pad for a magazine article. It was about being competitive enough to be in the hunt and about lasting the entire race.
If that's all it takes why did Ford build the GT40 after the Cobras finished 1,2 & 3 at LeMans? That's all it ever took? Maybe if all you do is make left turns for 500 miles.
The "game" as played by Porsche was never being the fastest or pulling the most G's on the skid pad for a magazine article. It was about being competitive enough to be in the hunt and about lasting the entire race.
If that's all it takes why did Ford build the GT40 after the Cobras finished 1,2 & 3 at LeMans? That's all it ever took? Maybe if all you do is make left turns for 500 miles.
Hi Adam,
No problem, the Mustang GT and additional iterations are very nice and competent cars. They are a bit overweight and the additional HP compensates for that. Price wise, they are a great value.
In the last C/D Lightning Lap 2011, here's the way the Mustangs and the Porsche Boxster Spyder rang out:
Car -----------VIR Lap Time------HP/weight-----Cost as tested
Mustang GT 5.0--3:08.6---------412/3626-------$36,380
Mustang GT500--3:04.6---------550/3824-------$53,330
Boxster Spyder--3:03.8----------320/3063-------$75,000
911 GT3 RS------2:55.9---------450/3158------$151,092 for comparison (the Corvette was just as fast)
Fast lap times can also be had with sufficient HP, a great handling chassis with balance, and confidence inspiring ride dynamics. Imagine what would happen if Porsche saw fit to put the 450 HP GT3 RS motor into a Boxster or Cayman chassis?
The Boxster Spyder did come in 1st in the 2010 Best Handling car under $100K, C/D saying:
"Remember what we said about handling and driver confidence? Everything in the Porsche harmonizes to instantly convey its unflappability, leading to unsurpassed and immediate driver assuredness. Plus it’s utterly balanced, predictable, and unfazed by any midcorner unevenness. It lets go with warning and recovers seamlessly.
What’s also astonishing is that the Spyder feels just as alive during a five-tenths relaxed cruise as it does when gunning for a track record. A big piece of this magic is its steering, which is exceedingly accurate, responsive, and communicative. It doesn’t have quite the raw, organic feel that the Elise’s does, but it’s a very close second, maybe a tie. And it does all this without high-tech tricks such as electronically variable shocks; it uses struts at all four corners.
The Porsche’s brilliance had us grappling with ways to describe it, such as a “coherence that almost defies belief,” or, “so fluid that it’s difficult to dissect the components.” Another likened a run through a section of fast switchbacks to “riding a wave.”
No matter how it’s characterized, we’re unanimously sure of one thing: the Spyder’s all-encompassing, dynamic excellence."
All cars are dynamic compromises of power, handling, comfort, cost. Each parameter weighs on the individual driver's objective and subjective idea of what its worth and how well it performs. As all manufacturers can develop and refine a chassis/car over time, overall performance improves generally over time. Value is wherever the car is positioned within a particular market. But usually, higher performance costs more at the retail level. The Mustang is a great value and certainly can hold its own. The Porsche Boxster Spyder is not a tremendous value, but the Boxster S is very similar and also a well balanced automobile.
My personal bias is towards Porsche because of the overall level of engineering and excellence, although at a cost. Other Porsche people look askance because for them its only the 911, or the 356 or nothing. That's ok too.
If Porsche could produce a 2500 pound car that's not overly squat and short, with about 300HP (flat-6 vs. turbo/supercharged 4) in a mid engine chassis, under $45K, they'd have a winner - problem is, could they make money on it? And that's the bottom line these days with any car company. The other issue is why build an inexpensive car that may outperform their higher cost cars?
pjsjr
Playing Around
Dominated? I don't think so. The 935 owned GTP for what, the best part of a couple of decades. :yes:
If that's all it takes why did Ford build the GT40 after the Cobras finished 1,2 & 3 at LeMans?
Well, maybe, just maybe dominated might be to strong a verb to use:scratch2:. Twenty years of 'owning' GTP...not to bad!!!! If you search and start here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_in_motorsport .
From the wikipedia article...
Major victories and championships14 Makes and Team World Championship (1964, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1994)
8 Long Distance World Championship
3 IMSA Supercar-Series (1991, 1992, 1993)
6 German Racing Championship (1977, 1979, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985)
20 European Hill Climbing Championship
22 Daytona 24 Hours (1968, 1970, 1971, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1991, 1995, 2003, 2009, 2010)
15 IMSA Supercar-Race (USA)
16 24 Hours of Le Mans (1970, 1971, 1976, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1998)
18 12 Hours of Sebring (1960, 1968, 1971, 1973, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 2008)
1 Rallye-Weltmeisterschaft (1970)
11 Targa Florio (1956, 1959, 1960, 1963, 1964, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973)
4 Rallye Monte Carlo (1968, 1969, 1970, 1978)
2 Paris-Dakar Rally (1984, 1986)
1 Formula One victory (1962)
[edit] TAG-Porsche engine in McLaren cars3 Formula One Driver World Championship (1984, 1985, 1986)
2 Formula One Constructor World Championship (1984, 1985)
25 Formula One victories (1984, 12 wins; 1985, 6 wins; 1986, 4 wins; 1987, 3 wins)
Porsche became the marque to beat...the 917 won Le Mans more than ten times:thmbsp:, in many race venues...not just one or two.
Keep in mind that Porsche was and still is a small 'potatoes' in the automotive manufacturing world. Ford could have blown Porsche or any other make out of any racing venue, when and if, they chose to.
I'm a fan of the marque and it's remarkable success. Preston
Had Ford set it's sites on world domination, instead of just a d*ck measuring contest with Ferrarri they probably could have owned just about any title they wanted back in the day. Porsche's engineering is what always had set them apart. I've actually got a ride in a '64 Carrerra II in '75. The 4 Cam from the 904 made 180 naturally aspirated hp from 2 litres. That's 1.5 HP per cubic inch compared to the 1.12 HP/CI for the '65 Vette 327! Putting that in the 356 was just plain crazy, but in a good way 
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Rodzilla
Super Member
the whole cooperative idea is what doesn't work well, both the 914 and 924 were originally designed for and destined to be VW platforms...both were taken over and produced by porsche when VW got cold feet and backed out...what was a car company gonna do?the design and testing was done,the money spent...might as well make the best of it and sell them!they're not the best cars the company ever produced but i'd wager porsche made good money selling both.
VinylHanger
Navigaret ex ironia
As far as price goes, many of these cars are cheaper than a fully loaded pickup truck. 60-70,000 on a truck isn't out of the ordinary.
If I didn't have to have my rig work for a living, I would rather have a GT500 or Boxter if I was just looking for a boulevard cruiser. Besides being more fun, they hold their value for pretty much ever. Unlike a truck.
Of course, I doubt I will ever spend 60-70,000 on a truck or a car.
If I didn't have to have my rig work for a living, I would rather have a GT500 or Boxter if I was just looking for a boulevard cruiser. Besides being more fun, they hold their value for pretty much ever. Unlike a truck.
Of course, I doubt I will ever spend 60-70,000 on a truck or a car.
Buy a used Boxster S for $25K or less, best fun you'll have for the rest of your life!