Denon Amplifier question

[MarkL1966]

My current set up consists of a Harman Kardon HK6600 amplifier with Bose 301 speakers, these were late 1980s purchases and have served me well , the amplifier, rated at 90w has been troublesome just recently with random hissing and popping and I am looking to replace it .
I rather like the Denon series of Amps I particularly like the PMA1700 , because of its high power rating, I also looking at the PMA 900 , primarily as it is cheaper, I believe that is rated at 50w into. 8 ohms.
I know next to nothing about amplifier power ratings and speaker ohms etc , but I do know I like to play music loud.
I also use vinyl and have a Technics SL1200 turntable with MC cartridge, and I know both of those Denon amplifiers cater for MC cartridges.
Dare I say I am old school too and still use audio cassettes , my tape deck is a high end Yamaha 3 head example.
Just asking advice on which amp out of those two which I mentioned would be the best match for my BOSE 301speakers?

 

[opnly bafld]

The 1700 has a better build quality and is made in Japan if that matters to you, otherwise whichever one fits your budget.
The difference between 50w and 70w is not much, a barely noticeable 3 dB increase from 50 requires 100w and twice as loud as 50 requires 500w (all else being equal).

 

[MarkL1966]

Better build quality and "Japan" do matter to me, always been a firm believer in "you get what you pay for".
There was a time we had HiFi shops and amplifiers could easily be compared, often with home audition!
I have just ordered a PMA 900 from an on line source, I will test it and if I feel it I could do better then I will return it and go for the Denon 1700.
My rig dates back to late 80s / early 90s , just reading various forums it became apparent that Bose 301 speakers are not a popular choice amongst HiFi enthusiasts, but I remain convinced with the right amplifier they will deliver the audio quality Which I am looking for.

 

[opnly bafld]

Bose 301 speakers

What series are they?

 

[twiiii]

Bose speakers aree pretty in efficient so if you can afford power do so unless listening in a small space.

 

[ProudArmyBra]

Well I think your early Bose 301's should be 4ohm so when you look at amps look at the 4 ohm rating. I am pretty sure that 50wpc rating is at 8ohms it should be 80-100wpc I would imagine at 4ohm.

I am not familar with anything current from Dennon though. Usually phono stage is normaly part of the pre-amp and not part of an amp. Only my intergrated amps which have the re-amp "intergrated" have phone stages otherwise your pre-amp is where you normaly look for a phono stage. Today though you can get a good phono stage for not an insane amount of money. Today when you see an intergrated phono stage unless it is a high end piece of kit you normaly only get MM and not MC phono stage unless they mention it directly. So make sure you check closely if you need MC.

So I just went and took a look at the Dennon PMA 900 and it is rated at 85W@4ohms. It is an integrated amp so it has streaming, bluetooth and clearly says it MC/MM phono stage. If your used to 90wpc rms 85wpc will sound the same in terms of raw power. It might not sound the same in terms of sound concept as you Harmon Kardon but that wont be down to power. The PMA 1700 has 140wpc @ 4ohms that would be a big increase in power and headroom so think more dynamic than what you are using now more than likely!

 

[ProudArmyBra]

I would check this out because you get 200wpc rms @4ohms you get pre-amp, MM/MC phonstage, tuner, dac, bluetooth but no streaming. It is $1099 but just hover for a minute and a drop down cupon for 25% will come down. That is $824 I think and you get 30day trial adn 3 year warranty and I think free shipping.

 

[MarkL1966]

What series are they?

They are series II .
I bought them in 1988

 

[MarkL1966]

I would check this out because you get 200wpc rms @4ohms you get pre-amp, MM/MC phonstage, tuner, dac, bluetooth but no streaming. It is $1099 but just hover for a minute and a drop down cupon for 25% will come down. That is $824 I think and you get 30day trial adn 3 year warranty and I think free shipping.

I am UK based

 

[MarkL1966]

I would check this out because you get 200wpc rms @4ohms you get pre-amp, MM/MC phonstage, tuner, dac, bluetooth but no streaming. It is $1099 but just hover for a minute and a drop down cupon for 25% will come down. That is $824 I think and you get 30day trial adn 3 year warranty and I think free shipping.

I am UK based:-

Bose speakers aree pretty in efficient so if you can afford power do so unless listening in a small space.

My room is approx 12ft x 10ft , the Bose speakers are wall mounted.
I rather suspect I will take a dislike to the PMA 900 on the basis it has plastic controls.
My Harman Kardon amp dates from 1990 is very solid and well constructed and the controls are not plastic!

 

[MarkL1966]

I would check this out because you get 200wpc rms @4ohms you get pre-amp, MM/MC phonstage, tuner, dac, bluetooth but no streaming. It is $1099 but just hover for a minute and a drop down cupon for 25% will come down. That is $824 I think and you get 30day trial adn 3 year warranty and I think free shipping.

I am UK based:-

Bose speakers aree pretty in efficient so if you can afford power do so unless listening in a small space.

My room is approx 12ft x 10ft , the Bose speakers are wall mounted.
I rather suspect I will take a dislike to the PMA 900 on the basis it has plastic controls.
My Harman Kardon amp dates from 1990 is very solid and well constructed and the controls are not plastic!

Bose speakers aree pretty in efficient so if you can afford power do so unless listening in a small space.

Always remember trying a NAD 3130 with my Bose speakers , the NAD was not able to drive them to the volume level I was expecting.

 

[MarkL1966]

Well I think your early Bose 301's should be 4ohm so when you look at amps look at the 4 ohm rating. I am pretty sure that 50wpc rating is at 8ohms it should be 80-100wpc I would imagine at 4ohm.

I am not familar with anything current from Dennon though. Usually phono stage is normaly part of the pre-amp and not part of an amp. Only my intergrated amps which have the re-amp "intergrated" have phone stages otherwise your pre-amp is where you normaly look for a phono stage. Today though you can get a good phono stage for not an insane amount of money. Today when you see an intergrated phono stage unless it is a high end piece of kit you normaly only get MM and not MC phono stage unless they mention it directly. So make sure you check closely if you need MC.

So I just went and took a look at the Dennon PMA 900 and it is rated at 85W@4ohms. It is an integrated amp so it has streaming, bluetooth and clearly says it MC/MM phono stage. If your used to 90wpc rms 85wpc will sound the same in terms of raw power. It might not sound the same in terms of sound concept as you Harmon Kardon but that wont be down to power. The PMA 1700 has 140wpc @ 4ohms that would be a big increase in power and headroom so think more dynamic than what you are using now more than likely!

I believe my bose 301 II are 8 ohm speakers rated at 75w

 

[ProudArmyBra]

It is hard to find anything with actual metal knobs and switches. Even the Yamaha amps like the 701 has what looks like metal knobs and switches shaped just like the vintage ones but they are plastic.

If you are in the UK why not look into Quad or one of the other UK based brands like Cambridge Audio etc? It seems like longterm support would be good juding from past history.

Does Dennon use metal knobs today? Are knob and switch material a real deal breaker? I know I would rather have a Toyota with a plastic Dash than a General Motors with a steel dash if you follow me. Not because I like plastic but there are other factors at play.

 

[MarkL1966]

There was a time all quality amps were made with metal control's, I associate plastic knows as being 'cheap' maybe ok in short term, but over time, possible they become brittle or discoloured.
I believe I was reading that the Denon PMA 1700 utilises metal knobs.

 

[ProudArmyBra]

I know I own gear spaning from 1970-2024. My Emotiva BasX TA1 has a knurled metal knob and 3 plastic buttons. It's one knob is knurled metal.

My 1990's Carver gear has soft touch plastic, metal and plastic.

I drove, repaired and restored plenty of cars with steel dashes, no seat belts, lap belt only, and if a part on the car looked like it was metal it was metal not chrome plated plastic. Just like if it looked like wood it was wood. I also can clearly recall the change. I remeber all the plastic fake wood Cadilacs, Buicks, Mercurys and the like. I can remeber when Daimler made cars that would easily do 500,000 miles with out costing a fortune once out of warranty back when there was very little plastic under the hood and the plastic that was there was quality plastic. The time before them and BMW went to single use aluminum nuts and bolts throughout the powertrain.

More important though than the knobs I remeber when amplifiers had lots of copper and nickle silicone transformer steel. I remeber when they used plenty of capacitence. When switches and pots where analog and not cheap designed to fail encoders. I remember when you had a control for every function instead of a really bad display and a menu you have to scroll through for everything from tone, to balance, to input and output selection. When you got really nice verneer controlls with actualy bearings and gear reductions.

Even the Swiss and Germans do not build them like that any more! I do not want to pay $10,000+ today for what cost $500 in 1980. No mass market consumer grade amps you can buy on Amazon, Crutchfield or most other places are built like they used to be at any realitic price. I am sure some boutique low volume had built units are but not many will ever get their hands on those. What really disapoints me though is what is under the hood more than the hood itself.

Because most of the gear uses controllers to control even the analog output once those micro controllers fail you will have a boat anchor few of them will use the same microcontroller over the life of a design. A lot of encoders are mounted to PCB's so even changing that out is not as simple as it once was. It can be done but not as easily as a pot on a 1970's piece of kit. Sadly though the price of vintage gear just keeps climbing and the people that can keep them repaired keeps dropping with each passing year. The transistors and such are also disapearing fast as are the types of switches and pots used.

I think Fosi Audio has metal knobs on some of their Class D amps and intergrateds.

I would love for a good many things to be built like they once where. Even better a combination of the best of old school and new school in a way that benifited the purchaser and the guy or gal that will own it second hand some day. Pipe dream is what my mom called that sort of thinking when I was a child. The only real innovation we have seen in the last 20 years is in how cheaply something can be manufactured which does not really benifit the consumer often. One of the few places it has is in TV's and Microwaves. Sure they do not last that long but boy are they cheap!

Shipping from China has gotten insane for anything larger than a shoe box. Shipping in the USA has as well my Mom sent me a few shirts from Arizona to Michigan one box was $28 and the other was $36 both boxes are 12"x12"x5" and have fairly light weight shirts in them. Boxes might as well be filled with air. Now imagine shipping a 40lbs. to 65lbs. piece of kit from China, Canada or Europe to the USA. I stopped purchasing things from Canada over a decade ago because shipping was so high it was cheaper for me to drive to Canada and pick something up!

The price of copper, lead and silver are also stupidly high. Capcitors are cheap today especialy electrolytics but the weight they add is again high.

 

[Powertech]

I have a Denon PMA720AE and I quite like it. Very clear sound and is well built. The internal phono preamp is particularly good. The PMA 900 is identical apart from the addition of digital input switching and an internal DAC. The only oddity about it is that it doesn't have a conventional tape monitor loop. There is a recorder output though. - i.e. off tape monitoring is not possible. Either Denon would certainly be worth a listen.

 

[MarkL1966]

I have a Denon PMA720AE and I quite like it. Very clear sound and is well built. The internal phono preamp is particularly good. The PMA 900 is identical apart from the addition of digital input switching and an internal DAC. The only oddity about it is that it doesn't have a conventional tape monitor loop. There is a recorder output though. - i.e. off tape monitoring is not possible. Either Denon would certainly be worth a listen.

Thats useful information, I didn't know the 900 was lacking a tape loop , that is something I have a requirement for so on that basis, that amp would not tick the boxes.
Still favouring the 1700 , checking the user manual and that does accommodate a tape deck.
I use a 3 head cassette deck , a high end Yamaha model.
My CD and mini disk both make use of optical connections.