Denon DL-103r which turntable?

[gizzyman47]

Quick question fellow AK'ers
I ordered a new Denon DL-103r cart and wanted your opinion on which table I should mount it to.
Have a rebuilt Denon DP-45F and a Pioneer pl-600 (silver).
The Denon table has a Denon DL-60
The Pioneer table has a Denon DL-110 HO
Both tables sound good as is but want to upgrade. Thinking of installing the new 103R on the Pioneer and moving the 110 HO to the Denon DL-45f.
What do you think? Thanks.....

 

[timmy.timmy]

Quick question fellow AK'ers
I ordered a new Denon DL-103r cart and wanted your opinion on which table I should mount it to.

The match in regard of any cartridge's signal is with a preamp or step-up transformer. But in regard of the cart (or contilever's suspension really) compliance is with a tonearm's effective mass. Not a turntable per se.

A turntable's match with any tonearm is generaly based upon their build and compatibility "mecanically". And sonically for the 'classic' matches. But like for everything phono great combinations can be discovered...

It is important to understand all that. Then to have balance in "class" or 'end' combination of gear in the phono chain is crucial for a coherent playback experience in respect of their ability to perform optimastically.

Have a rebuilt Denon DP-45F and a Pioneer pl-600 (silver).
The Denon table has a Denon DL-60
The Pioneer table has a Denon DL-110 HO
Both tables sound good as is but want to upgrade. Thinking of installing the new 103R on the Pioneer and moving the 110 HO to the Denon DL-45f.
What do you think? Thanks.....

The Denon table DP-45F is a no-no. Light effective mass tonearm aiming for high compliant cartridge mostly. Not adjustable enough on VTA and complicated controled mechanisms for such a great dynosaure 103.

The Pioneer has adjustable VTA and can be fitted with an extra counter weight. Even though the dynamic anti-skate might prove a tad too limited to work with even heavier effective mass added on the tonearm...

The 103 cartridge to perform not only good but great as it should will truly benefit from a heavier effective mass added (at least temporary) on the headshell, tube and couter weight with coins and blutak for example.

 

[vinylkid58]

I ordered a new Denon DL-103r cart and wanted your opinion on which table I should mount it to.

IMHO, you should have bought an AT33PTG.

jeff

 

[dualhead]

As mentioned above, the Denon 103s need a heavier arm. VAS makes a Denon 103 with upgraded stylus profile and cantilever with a tracking force of 1.85. They also include a weight to add mass to the headshell. That would get you closer to a match with the Pioneer. And it is about half the price of the 103r.

 

[cafe latte]

The

As mentioned above, the Denon 103s need a heavier arm. VAS makes a Denon 103 with upgraded stylus profile and cantilever with a tracking force of 1.85. They also include a weight to add mass to the headshell. That would get you closer to a match with the Pioneer. And it is about half the price of the 103r.

Vas mod does not alter the compliance at all, they just add a bit of weight to the cart but the cart will still need close to 30g effective mass arm. The Vas version is only 4g heavier than the stock version so with an example of a 12g effective mass arm this only gets you to 16g effective mass which is not even close to the correct complaince. The only mod that works re compliance is cantilever and suspension mods that really change the compliance Vas does not.
Chris

 

[tabarddn51]

Wonderful, At last Chris & I agree on something, the arm with the heaviest Eff mass arm is the one to use. Then you need to increase it's Eff Mass to at least 22 grams, but for the best sound preferably 35 grams. (see my blog on ''Using a 103 with a 35 gram Eff Mass Arm)
You can do this in several ways
- Buy a Heavy Weight Head-shell. (just weigh the difference between you current one & the new one & add that to the 16 grams.
- Next buy or make a thick brass spacer, again weigh it & fit it to the head-shell. I can go on top so as not to upset the VTA.
- It you still need to add weight then change the body to an Aluminium cap (easy job) & plenty for sale. Add a layer of lead shot glued to the bottom of the cap & again weight the difference between the plastic body & new Alli body.
Now you should be somewhere near your target weigh, if more is required then add the appropriate weight with Blu-tac to the head-shell.

And finally ask before you buy & you will save a lot of heart ache. The Denon 103D would work with your arm & is the best sounding of all the 103 range.

Cheers Derek

 

[gizzyman47]

Thanks for all your replies! I'll try the head shell option and see how it sounds.

 

[dualhead]

The

Vas mod does not alter the compliance at all, they just add a bit of weight to the cart but the cart will still need close to 30g effective mass arm. The Vas version is only 4g heavier than the stock version so with an example of a 12g effective mass arm this only gets you to 16g effective mass which is not even close to the correct complaince. The only mod that works re compliance is cantilever and suspension mods that really change the compliance Vas does not.
Chris

I stand corrected!

 

[cafe latte]

Wonderful, At last Chris & I agree on something, the arm with the heaviest Eff mass arm is the one to use. Then you need to increase it's Eff Mass to at least 22 grams, but for the best sound preferably 35 grams. (see my blog on ''Using a 103 with a 35 gram Eff Mass Arm)
You can do this in several ways
- Buy a Heavy Weight Head-shell. (just weigh the difference between you current one & the new one & add that to the 16 grams.
- Next buy or make a thick brass spacer, again weigh it & fit it to the head-shell. I can go on top so as not to upset the VTA.
- It you still need to add weight then change the body to an Aluminium cap (easy job) & plenty for sale. Add a layer of lead shot glued to the bottom of the cap & again weight the difference between the plastic body & new Alli body.
Now you should be somewhere near your target weigh, if more is required then add the appropriate weight with Blu-tac to the head-shell.

And finally ask before you buy & you will save a lot of heart ache. The Denon 103D would work with your arm & is the best sounding of all the 103 range.

Cheers Derek

Retip and compliance mid is the best thing you can do to a 103.
It is a great cart but thr wrong compliance

 

[VintageVibe]

I own both the 103D and 103r. Love 'em both. With the D out of production, the Dl-301 mk II is the only choice if you're looking at new.

 

[Hoytis]

The

Vas mod does not alter the compliance at all, they just add a bit of weight to the cart but the cart will still need close to 30g effective mass arm. The Vas version is only 4g heavier than the stock version so with an example of a 12g effective mass arm this only gets you to 16g effective mass which is not even close to the correct complaince. The only mod that works re compliance is cantilever and suspension mods that really change the compliance Vas does not.
Chris

I have to say that I run the VAS Ebony 103 on a Thorens TP16. Effective mass is 16 grams and the cart sounds beautiful. 103 compliance is 5×10-6cm/dyne but that's Japanese standard at 100 Hz, so you can almost double that to get usable 10 Hz for an online resonance evaluator. It works for me.

 

[stratokaster]

The

Vas mod does not alter the compliance at all, they just add a bit of weight to the cart but the cart will still need close to 30g effective mass arm. The Vas version is only 4g heavier than the stock version so with an example of a 12g effective mass arm this only gets you to 16g effective mass which is not even close to the correct complaince. The only mod that works re compliance is cantilever and suspension mods that really change the compliance Vas does not.
Chris

I find it really interesting that Denon sold a lot of these cartridges together with the DA-305 tonearm which is nowhere near 30g in effective mass, more like 17-18g. Makes you wonder, eh?

 

[Hoytis]

I find it really interesting that Denon sold a lot of these cartridges together with the DA-305 tonearm which is nowhere near 30g in effective mass, more like 17-18g. Makes you wonder, eh?

Yeah, I talked to Steve Leung at VAS, who is responsible for designing the Ebony 103, before buying and he had no problem with me throwing it on the TP16.

 

[cafe latte]

I find it really interesting that Denon sold a lot of these cartridges together with the DA-305 tonearm which is nowhere near 30g in effective mass, more like 17-18g. Makes you wonder, eh?

People who have tested these carts for resonance report it is around 30g when the resonance is in the ideal 10Hz zone.
I am sure they sound good with an 18g effective mass arm but they sound much much better when the effective mass is much higher.
Chris

 

[tabarddn51]

Well, We agree again. !!

As I said in another blog on the same subject. in a 35 (or thereabouts) arm. The mid range of the 103 opens up to near Koetsu quality. In fact I consider it to be better than my old K/red.
At around 22 gams arm Eff Mass is when the base comes on song, but you do not get the real deal until your in the 30's

Cheers

 

[timmy.timmy]

I find it really interesting that Denon sold a lot of these cartridges together with the DA-305 tonearm which is nowhere near 30g in effective mass, more like 17-18g. Makes you wonder, eh?

Goes to show that the tinkerrers or tweakers are often 'right' to seek beyond the manufacturer's recommendations in adjustments and settings to reach for the best. Not for the 'cold feet' caracters nor the submissives kind following guidelines blindly. A real socio-consummerist epi-phenomena... Oops drifting here.

Denon trying too push up their tonearm and cartridge sales regardless of both their optimal expected performance in match does not surprise me one bit. As most by 1972 and after would not conceive to have such a heavy effective mass tonearm (transcription) home where the trend was toward light effective mass. Like that for a while...

 

[run_around]

I find it really interesting that Denon sold a lot of these cartridges together with the DA-305 tonearm which is nowhere near 30g in effective mass, more like 17-18g. Makes you wonder, eh?

Actually the da-305, at least the earliest version, was a 10 inch broadcast tonearm made specifically for the 103 and adopted by NHK radio: (google translate)

Universal tone arm designed by professional engineering, while maintaining the performance and durability of ds-302 / da-303 / da-304 for broadcasting, which has been adopted in NHK and other commercial stations. http://www.gracehifi.com/en/showaudio/audiohistory34/audiohistory526/402.html

I've never seen a spec with effective mass of the arm but would like to see one.

 

[stratokaster]

Actually the da-305, at least the earliest version, was a 10 inch broadcast tonearm made specifically for the 103 and adopted by NHK radio: (google translate)

Universal tone arm designed by professional engineering, while maintaining the performance and durability of ds-302 / da-303 / da-304 for broadcasting, which has been adopted in NHK and other commercial stations. http://www.gracehifi.com/en/showaudio/audiohistory34/audiohistory526/402.html

I've never seen a spec with effective mass of the arm but would like to see one.

I've never seen the quoted effective mass as well, but the DA-305 is definitely somewhat lighter than the Audio-Technica AT-1503-II which is quoted at 20g. (I used to have both, but in the end sold the Denon and kept the AT because of its superior geometry. Both sounded fantastic with the DL103.)

 

[jmchrislip]

Doesn't the DP-45F have a dynamic servo tracer system? It should compensate for most cartridges. I haven't used one for many years and never had a Denon 103 on it but I suspect it would probably serve you well on the DP-45F.

 

[tabarddn51]

Hi, I cannot take credit for this. It was a guy on Audiogon who did the ground work with different arms. H tried the 103 in 5 or 6 different arms going from 8 to 35 grams. The 35 gram Ikea to him sounding the best.
I just happened to be lucky enough to
a - read the article (cannot find it now)
b - my Temaad arm is versatile enough to allow my to easily mod it to 35 grams.

Cheers