• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Denon DP-57L Cartridge Choice Struggle

greg fox

greg fox

Member
I'm really struggling with the choice of a cartridge. I keep thinking I've found one, only to find some bit of info that dissuades me. I seem to keep nudging up in price as I read about either a given insufficiency of a cart, or reading how lovely something like the Hana EH is.

I listen to stuff like Nora Jones to Zeppelin, and really appreciate a fast response and resonances of drums and most instruments. I suppose I really like transients and detail. I'd like to keep things under $500

I was favoring the VM540ML, until I read about the highend sound, which may or may not be fixable with proper loading. I'm using a Moon LP-110 v2 with has a large range of loading.

Nagaoka MP-200 and VM750SH seem to be ranked fairly close in reviews

My system consists of a Denon DP-57L table (straight low mass arm), Moon LP-110 v2 Phonostage, Threshold FET 10 Preamp, Adcom GFA-555 v1, ADS L880 speakers.
 
Register to hide this ad
You have the straight low-mass arm, so need a cartridge with a high-compliance stylus.

It is good that your phono pre-amp has selectable capacitance, but the selection is quite limited... 0 / 100pF / 330pF / 430pF. I would like to have seen a 200 or 220pF setting, as 100 to 330pF is really quite a jump. The most usable setting there would probably be 100pF, and perhaps 0pF for cartridges that require a very low capacitive load, like the ATs.

If you like a fast, dynamic, detailed sound, I think you should look at Ortofon among the MM/MI cartridges. The 2M Blue satisfies these criteria but with your budget you could consider the Bronze or Black. They are just about high-compliance too.

I think the Nagaoka MP-200 would have a mellower sound and it is not high-compliance. Talking of Nagaoka, I have no experience of this new cartridge of theirs but this is a very nice video featuring a Nora Jones album. I'm not sure about the compliance, but it is fairly light tracking.

 
I thought the AT carts liked 200pF, or is that a maximum? Would this effect the high frequency issues many of them have?
 
Mister Pig said:
Look at the Audio Technica OC9XML. Sells for $549 or so, and offers all the good bits and pieces in a cartridge design. Good value here in terms of quality of build and performance.
Click to expand...
what is the difference between the versions? I read that the 2
the 3 cut a couple of corners compared to the 2. cantilever remains solid boron but is no longer gold-plated as it was in the AT-OC9ML/II.



Audio Technica OC9XML 3 35×10-6cm/dyne $500
Audio Technica OC9XML 2 is 35×10-6cm/dyne $550
Audio Technica OC9XML 20 x 10-6 cm/dyne $550
 
greg fox said:
I thought the AT carts liked 200pF, or is that a maximum? Would this effect the high frequency issues many of them have?
Click to expand...
The AT MM cartridges like 100-200pF. But to get the capacitive load on the cartridge, you must add the phono-stage capacitance and the phono-cable capacitance (also the arm-wire capacitance actually). Your phono-cables could account for a good proportion of that 200pF maximum, which is why I suggested the 0pF setting might be appropriate. In practice, I bet most people use AT cartridges with the capacitive load greater than 200pF, but then there is the risk of them sounding bright.

By the way, I think the compliances that you are quoting for the AT-OC9XML are static compliances. In doing arm/cartridge matching, usually the dynamic compliance as measured at 10Hz is used - greater than 20 is considered high-compliance. AT do quote the dynamic compliance but at 100Hz (as do most Japanese manufacturers). There is a rule-of-thumb to multiply by 1.7 or 1.8 to get an estimate for the 10Hz figure.
 
Crab33 said:
The AT MM cartridges like 100-200pF. But to get the capacitive load on the cartridge, you must add the phono-stage capacitance and the phono-cable capacitance (also the arm-wire capacitance actually). Your phono-cables could account for a good proportion of that 200pF maximum, which is why I suggested the 0pF setting might be appropriate. In practice, I bet most people use AT cartridges with the capacitive load greater than 200pF, but then there is the risk of them sounding bright.

By the way, I think the compliances that you are quoting for the AT-OC9XML are static compliances. In doing arm/cartridge matching, usually the dynamic compliance as measured at 10Hz is used - greater than 20 is considered high-compliance. AT do quote the dynamic compliance but at 100Hz (as do most Japanese manufacturers). There is a rule-of-thumb to multiply by 1.7 or 1.8 to get an estimate for the 10Hz figure.
Click to expand...
Is the "phono-stage capacitance" the internal value, or the one set with the dip switches?
 
What about the AT's VM540ML?

I've been looking at the ortofon Blue and Bronze, and not sure if the price difference is worth it, especially after reading “All this neutrality and detailing comes at a price, however, and the 2M Bronze, while very capable, creates an academic sound that's restrained where it needs to let its hair down” from What-Hifi.

Also, I'm not sure my records are all in the best shape, and I have a tone of digital music, that I don't have the vinyl versions of. I'm questioning my need for an expensive vinyl reproduction system...I've been using my Moon 260D Neo CD player mostly, and listened to some stuff on my Denon DP-30L.(with a cheap AT cartridge). I'm not sure if it is better, but it was definitely different. This is why I started my foray into vinyl again.
 
I only have experience of the 2M Red and Blue, and I would say that they are far from restrained - probably the least restrained cartridges I know - so I'm doubting that the Bronze and Black are. Sometimes I wonder about some of the What Hi-Fi reviews.

The AT-VM540ML is well loved on this forum, but I have seen comments elsewhere about it being bright, although I suspect this is down to a high capacitive load. You have a phono pre-amp that apparently has a 0pF setting (which is highly unusual), so you should be able to avoid this brightness. Having said that, I have had three cartridges with MicroLine styli (but not this one) and while they were all excellent trackers (very clean), they all seemed a little subdued to me in the dynamics department - whether this is down to the ML stylus, I don't know.

If your records are not in great condition, you may think that an exotic stylus (such as the ML) will be more revealing of faults, but this is not necessarily the case, as the stylus may sit deeper in the groove and avoid surface marks and scratches.

If you feel happier with something less ambitious, I would suggest a cartridge with a nude elliptical stylus to start off with (which should be better than your cheap AT cartridge). If you like high dynamics, I suggest that you take the plunge with the 2M Blue, although it is very detailed and doesn't shy away from faults in the records. Another candidate that I usually propose for a low-mass arm is the Ortofon OM20, which is the equivalent of the 2M Blue in the OM range but has a slightly warmer tone (but avoid the Super-OM, which is brighter) - you may not be able to find a new example nowadays but can put one together from an OM5S and a Stylus 20. I very much doubt that it would disappoint you.

EDIT: Another alternative with nude elliptical stylus is the AT-VM530EN, which has the same body as the VM540ML, so you could upgrade the stylus at a later date, if you wish.
 
Last edited:
I haven't heard an Ortofon 2M series I've liked, but I have yet to hear a Bronze or Black. Same with Nagaoka and Grado. I have an MP-500 here that I need to listen to, but the 110, 150, and 200 haven't been to my liking.

For MM, I think the only viable modern choice is Audio Technica, and their cartridges epitomize transparency, with phenomenal transient response and detail. The older Ortofon Super OM series and Stanton 881/981 were excellent, but unavailable these days.

In the $500 range for a low mass arm, I would be looking very hard at Audio Technica MC cartridges, specifically the OC9 series. Getting a solid boron cantiliever and line contact stylus for $500 is a steal!

Moving coil is absolutely worth it, and I wish I would have jumped in sooner! I spent 15 years chasing MM carts....I wish I could go back and tell myself what was up!
 
I have an AT-OC9ML/II with ML stylus and boron cantilever. It is nice and refined but, again, a little lacking dynamically and on the whole underwhelming. I find the Ortofons best for transients. The AT120E has very good dynamics, which was the forerunner of the AT-VM530EN, so I would hope that the latter is good dynamically too.
 
thanks guys for your thoughts. I suppose since i don't know what recordings "should" sound like, so long I can enjoy the given sound of the instruments, that is the best one can expect, and not choosing one cart for another, would not therefore leave you thinking you made the wrong choice. Either way, the sound will be different from CDs.

Funny, I've shied away from MCs after a What-HiFi review of the Moon phono stage. The only fault they found with it, was that is wasn't as great with MC carts.
 
Last edited:
If that's your preference it's not going to be easy/cheap to replicate digital sound with an analog turntable/cartridge system. Might have to experiment with a number of phono preamps and cartridges or as you say just accept that analog sound will be different from CDs.
 
Kit Carson said:
If that's your preference it's not going to be easy/cheap to replicate digital sound with an analog turntable/cartridge system. Might have to experiment with a number of phono preamps and cartridges or as you say just accept that analog sound will be different from CDs.
Click to expand...
Not a preference so much as based on a review of the Moon. What-HiFi said, "Performance with MC cartridges leaves something to be desired", and "One glaring downside to the MOON by Simaudio 110LP V2 was how it handled moving coil cartridge performance. It came off as a little mushy and undefined, and we’d say there are definitely better options if you prefer this cartridge type"
It did get stellar reviews when using MMs.
 
I picked up my DP-57L a couple years back and it came with a Denon DL-110 with unknown hours on it. I didnt want to use it on my good vinyl till retipped so finally sent it off last year and had it not just retipped but upgraded a bit. Denon on Denon sounds great to me. It came on the straight low mass arm but I moved it over to the S-Arm when it came back from retip. Both certainly work with it.

Have you recapped your 57L? Ive been putting off doing mine but know Im playing with fire.
 
Crang said:
I picked up my DP-57L a couple years back and it came with a Denon DL-110 with unknown hours on it. I didnt want to use it on my good vinyl till retipped so finally sent it off last year and had it not just retipped but upgraded a bit. Denon on Denon sounds great to me. It came on the straight low mass arm but I moved it over to the S-Arm when it came back from retip. Both certainly work with it.

Have you recapped your 57L? Ive been putting off doing mine but know Im playing with fire.
Click to expand...
I have not, but plan to as soon as I get a cart for it, so I can have the cart aligned etc. I do have a 110 to 100v tramsformer for it.
 
MC cartridge have "fixed" voicing - that is to say - whatever the cantilever does is what you hear - you cannot adjust anything - which is why most MC's have a "bright" sound with a rising high end - assuming a top of the line cantilever (boron/ruby) - the resonance will be between 14kHz and 16Khz - ie: a boost in volume at the highs (along with a slight, not usually noticeable increase in distortion and decrease in trackability)

The same cantilever, in an MM design - tracks exactly the same way, and has exactly the same performance - BUT - you have an equalisation circuit available - known as the cartridge loading - and can use it to adjust the high end.... with tuning of the loading, you can achieve a flat/neutral frequency response and tame that signature MC rise.... or if you wish, you can leave it there, or even accentuate it... an MM gives you control of the voicing, an MC doesn't.
 
I ended up getting the VM-540ML.

First album up was the Grateful Dead, From the Mars Hotel.

It had a lovely mid-range, and the base was great. Instrument placement was nice, and seemingly so was the sound-stage. The
cymbals were a shade hot or perhaps just very detailed, with a very nice decay. I'm really happy with this cart! I'd go as far as to say that I liked the overall sound more than the same stuff on CD. Both were at 70db volume. It seemed like the vinyl was more open sounding.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom