Denon's Stereo House-Sound (80’s & 90’s): Questions about the gear

[js bach]

I'm a Denon fan; I have been since my first two pieces of gear... a DRA-635R receiver and DCD-1500 CD Player. Two pieces which I believe (according to internet writings here and there) were designed by two different design teams that worked for Denon during two different time periods (80’s & 90’s). In addition to the DRA-635 and DCD-1500, I’ve also owned the following Denon pieces over the past 20 years:

Receivers:
DRA-625
DRA-835R
DRA-1025R
DRA-1035R

Integrateds:
PMA-980R

CD Players:
DCD-1700
DCD-1520
DCD-3000
DCD-1290
DCM-444

Power Amps:
POA-2200
POA-8300

Over time, I've noticed a difference in overall sound characteristics between the older Denon gear (80's) and newer Denon gear (90's). Were there in fact two different Denon design teams? Was one team’s “stuff” better sounding than the other? Please keep in mind, everything written here is just my opinion based on my own listening tests. Condition and age of the gear can clearly be a factor in these subjective tests. Please share your own experiences with your favorite Denon gear. Speakers used during most of this timeframe: Mirage M-3si. Prior speakers: Infinity Kappa 8.1, Paradigm Studio Monitor (original), Infinity RS-IIIa’s. I am looking for the right Denon piece to use with my Mirage speakers. Read more below for what’s on the way.

The Receivers…
I seem to notice a distinct difference in the sound characteristics between the “25” and “35” series. I currently have a DRA-625 and DRA-1035R. The 1035 is currently in the shop for a cleaning, and, maybe an adjustment check because it sounds too glaring and harsh as soon as I reach 9 o’clock on the dial. It’s caps may be shot. Now from initial listening between the DRA-1035 and DRA-625, I immediately noticed that the DRA-1035 bettered the DRA-625 in clarity, soundstage and imaging. However, as it stands now, the DRA-625 is still my somewhat “reference” piece (since that’s all I’ve had for a while now). This particular DRA-625 though it not mine. It belongs to one of my friends--and has been on loan for a while now. The only other Denon pieces I did not like due to being overly harsh sounding was the PMA-980R and DCD-3000.

Of all the “25” Series receivers I have owned, the DRA-625 has the best bass response of any I have compared. Thus far, the DRA-1035 is the only one that has come close. The DRA-1025 is lacking by comparison. I’ve read though the DRA-825 has the same bass response as the DRA-625, but is a little cleaner in sound—possibly due to being optical class-A? I never owned a DRA-825. The DRA-835 in comparison reminded me of the 1025, with the 1025 having a slightly warmer sound. The 825 was clean and full (as in midrange), but a little lean in bass, which perhaps caused it to sound somewhat thin. The 1025 though sounded excellent through the volume range and did not sound harsh in any way. Now, given when I have written here, and the time periods from what I could gather, it would seem that the “25” series may have been designed by the 80’s team. Whereas the “35” series gear was possibly designed by the 90’s team? Same would hold true for the PMA-980R, which I believe was a 90’s production. Does any of this seem to hold true? If so, I guess I seem to favor the 80’s Denon sound vs. the 90’s.

Enter PMA….
This weekend I’m scheduled to pick up a PMA-900V from a local seller in my area. I’ve read the PMA-900V is one of Denon’s best pieces? Denon experts and aficionados please chime in. Given that all is electronically sound with this PMA-900V, I’m very curious to see how this will compare in sound to the DRA-625 and DRA-1035. The only other PMA piece I ever owned was a PMA-980R. I couldn’t stand it. Unless there was something terribly wrong with it, it just had a distinctively cold and harsh sound to it.

The CD Players…
The smoothest Denon CD player I owned (hands-down) was the DCD-1500. My second favorite was the DCD-1520. The worst sounding was the DCD-3000. It reminded me of the PMA-980R. The DCD-1290 was ok, but really didn’t have much body to its sound. It had a nice pitch-control feature though. The dcd-1700 was nice, but sounded thin compared to the DCD-1500. The 1500 sounded bold, full, but smooth and non-harsh.

Power Amps…
The POA-2200 was clean and loud, but again sounded thin to me in the bass region. It reminded me of the DRA-835, except a lot louder. The POA-8300 was excellent. Well defined bass, smooth, full mids and clean highs that were not harsh or bright at all. I believe the POA-8300, as well as the POA-8200 and POA-5200 are sleepers in the amp market. You can find them relatively inexpensive (compared to other power amps) and their sound quality is much, much better than most of their equivalents. I believe another very nice sounding piece (though never owned) is the PMA-2000R. In my opinion, the POA-8300 sounded much better than the POA-2200.

Conclusion & Home Theater…
It would seem I used the word “thin” a lot to describe some of the models. I used “thin” to describe the lack of bass response when comparing to other gear. Perhaps too the lesser bass I am referring is also causing the sound to be brighter too? Of all the Denon gear mentioned, the 625 had the best bass response, along with the POA-8300 and DRA-1035. I’m wondering how the PMA-900V will favor? As for design teams, it seems as though the 70’s & 80’s were really nice in terms of sound quality. To me, the 90’s were a little rough at times, with the 00’s and on being a little better? I have to keep in mind too, the 90’s was at the height of the HT craze; so all the manufacturers were putting their design dollars into the HT stuff. I do currently own a Denon AVR-3600 HT receiver. I use it on the flat screen only as the factory speakers are awful. I never considered comparing the 2-channel stereo on the AVR-3600 to the DRA-625 and DRA-1035. I wonder?

 

[restorer-john]

Denon have always been 'thin' to my ears too. The biggest difference between the big power amps was in the bass region- it was basically like Denons had the bass control turned down, although on a plot, they are ruler flat. My ears tell me otherwise. Their amplification, although well constructed and well finished just doesn't sound as good as it should. I have three POA1500 power amps and a POA2800 power amp still in my collection, along with several turntables and the matching PRA1500 preamplifier. Only the preamplifier gets any use, as it is a superb sounding preamp. The power amps are mothballed and unused. My Sony TAN77 or Luxman M03 power amps outclass them totally. In fact, the only power amps I enjoy less than the Denons are my collection of Yamaha power amps- they do nothing for me either.

 

[superdog]

Just wanted to post a few comments regarding Denon. I used to have the AVR3000 with the Denon dual cassette player and cd player mated with Paradigm 11seMkIII, cc300, ps1200, the big dipole surrounds, phantom rear and the poa2800 powering the front. I agree with your comments. Sold everything to get into two channel. Kicking myself because just after my purchase of the 2800 I met a chap who was selling the POA8000 with matching pre, for buttons because of debt-possibly divorce though I can't remember, but ever since I beat myself up just thinking about this whenever I hear the word Denon....lol
I also had a DRA1035. Very nice and I think they can be had for pennies these days, though I could be wrong....

What were your thoughts on the AVR 3000?

 

[superdog]

To be honest, I think the AVR3000 was Denon's top model when I purchased it. It was when surround was just coming onto the market but it had its flaws of course. Don't get me wrong it was a fabulous piece of kit, perhaps one of the best on the market at the time. I found the surround channels were under-powered compared to the front and that got even worse when I added the POA2800 into the mix. I ended up, after the 3000, with a 4803 or 4802 - I don't remember, but it was a major step up in the HT though very similar in 2channel or every other way with the 3000.
Don't get me wrong, it would be near impossible to knock the 3000 during the years of its production until the 7.1/7.2 and all the hdmi came along. I'd give it a 4/5. My only gripe was the power to the rear/center were - if I'm not mistaken - greatly under powered compared to the front. I think it was somewhere around 130wpc in the front and like 50 for the rear... All from my memory. I think I moved the 3000 around 2000 or 2001 and replaced it with a 4800 model and then sold everything to get into two channel... I don't think one can really knock any Denon product, even their mass production "low end" is still good kit comparatively speaking...

Thanks for the info.I ask because I picked one up not too long ago that I have no intention of using surround( I heard that a few makes were underpowered in the rear channels at the time).It is strictly two channel and I think it sounds quite good.

 

[Raynald]

I use M3-si in my main system, I sold Mirage when the M-1/M-3 were launched. I also used to sell Denon, including many of the models you have listed, along with many other electronics lines. I would not be looking at Denon to power my speakers. Nice stuff, but not really in the same league. The term 'mid-fi' is rather insulting but it accurately describes good companies that make good gear that has a place and gives good results to a lot of people. It also accurately conveys that the equipment will not go beyond a certain level, even if one moves up the prices scale. We had a pair of POA-66009(a?) mono blocks on the floor. They were better than the cheaper Denon pieces. They were not serious competition for higher end lines were carried, no one working at the store wanted to take a pair home.

If I was going F1 racing I could compare every model of Honda Accord ever made, it would still not be the right tool for the job. My advice is find a nice Bryston 3B-ST or 4B-ST. More money than used Denons, cheap compared to anything new that can compare, beautiful match for the Mirage, you might find one that still has more warranty left than many new pieces of gear and when you sell it you will get most of your money back so the actual cost of ownership is very low.

My apologies for going OT, but the Mirage are very challenging and revealing speakers which means they do respond if not require good amplification.

 

[dave1701]

I think vintage Denon gear is a real sleeper in terms of what you get based on used prices. Especially compared to some of the top brands. I love my PMA-860. It is very well-made, and it sounds great.

 

[vonclod]

My only Denon piece besides a cart..Denon DCD-S1, love it and doubt I could ever part with

 

[arclight73]

My only Denon piece besides a cart..Denon DCD-S1, love it and doubt I could ever part withView attachment 690086 View attachment 690085

 

[vonclod]

My only Denon piece besides a cart..Denon DCD-S1, love it and doubt I could ever part withView attachment 690086 View attachment 690085

Haha thanks, it is pretty cool. Somewhere around 35+ lbs pretty darn rare, has balanced outs and has a few digital inputs..I pretty much use as a transport though.
Most of the info is out of Japan, here is a page with the goods on it..see if it's the translated page that links..nope just click translate
http://www.denon.jp/jp/museum/products/dcds1.html

 

[Bratwurst7s]

I found the CDC-1290 CDP to be very thin in the mids until I removed the muting transistors and replaced the op-amps with some LME49720 and OPA2134 op-amps (2 different players). Major improvement.

Cheers,
James

 

[restorer-john]

Correction to my post above: The PRA1000 is the Denon preamp I use occasionally, I sold the PRA1500 as it wasn't a patch on the PRA1000.

 

[Fomoco1649]

I think vintage Denon gear is a real sleeper in terms of what you get based on used prices. Especially compared to some of the top brands. I love my PMA-860. It is very well-made, and it sounds great.

Agreed....I have a 1991 DRA 635R / 80 WPC and 1992 DRA 545R./ 60 WPC ...amazing sleepers

 

[Fomoco1649]

I'm a Denon fan; I have been since my first two pieces of gear... a DRA-635R receiver and DCD-1500 CD Player. Two pieces which I believe (according to internet writings here and there) were designed by two different design teams that worked for Denon during two different time periods (80’s & 90’s). In addition to the DRA-635 and DCD-1500, I’ve also owned the following Denon pieces over the past 20 years:

Receivers:
DRA-625
DRA-835R
DRA-1025R
DRA-1035R

Integrateds:
PMA-980R

CD Players:
DCD-1700
DCD-1520
DCD-3000
DCD-1290
DCM-444

Power Amps:
POA-2200
POA-8300

Over time, I've noticed a difference in overall sound characteristics between the older Denon gear (80's) and newer Denon gear (90's). Were there in fact two different Denon design teams? Was one team’s “stuff” better sounding than the other? Please keep in mind, everything written here is just my opinion based on my own listening tests. Condition and age of the gear can clearly be a factor in these subjective tests. Please share your own experiences with your favorite Denon gear. Speakers used during most of this timeframe: Mirage M-3si. Prior speakers: Infinity Kappa 8.1, Paradigm Studio Monitor (original), Infinity RS-IIIa’s. I am looking for the right Denon piece to use with my Mirage speakers. Read more below for what’s on the way.

The Receivers…
I seem to notice a distinct difference in the sound characteristics between the “25” and “35” series. I currently have a DRA-625 and DRA-1035R. The 1035 is currently in the shop for a cleaning, and, maybe an adjustment check because it sounds too glaring and harsh as soon as I reach 9 o’clock on the dial. It’s caps may be shot. Now from initial listening between the DRA-1035 and DRA-625, I immediately noticed that the DRA-1035 bettered the DRA-625 in clarity, soundstage and imaging. However, as it stands now, the DRA-625 is still my somewhat “reference” piece (since that’s all I’ve had for a while now). This particular DRA-625 though it not mine. It belongs to one of my friends--and has been on loan for a while now. The only other Denon pieces I did not like due to being overly harsh sounding was the PMA-980R and DCD-3000.

Of all the “25” Series receivers I have owned, the DRA-625 has the best bass response of any I have compared. Thus far, the DRA-1035 is the only one that has come close. The DRA-1025 is lacking by comparison. I’ve read though the DRA-825 has the same bass response as the DRA-625, but is a little cleaner in sound—possibly due to being optical class-A? I never owned a DRA-825. The DRA-835 in comparison reminded me of the 1025, with the 1025 having a slightly warmer sound. The 825 was clean and full (as in midrange), but a little lean in bass, which perhaps caused it to sound somewhat thin. The 1025 though sounded excellent through the volume range and did not sound harsh in any way. Now, given when I have written here, and the time periods from what I could gather, it would seem that the “25” series may have been designed by the 80’s team. Whereas the “35” series gear was possibly designed by the 90’s team? Same would hold true for the PMA-980R, which I believe was a 90’s production. Does any of this seem to hold true? If so, I guess I seem to favor the 80’s Denon sound vs. the 90’s.

Enter PMA….
This weekend I’m scheduled to pick up a PMA-900V from a local seller in my area. I’ve read the PMA-900V is one of Denon’s best pieces? Denon experts and aficionados please chime in. Given that all is electronically sound with this PMA-900V, I’m very curious to see how this will compare in sound to the DRA-625 and DRA-1035. The only other PMA piece I ever owned was a PMA-980R. I couldn’t stand it. Unless there was something terribly wrong with it, it just had a distinctively cold and harsh sound to it.

The CD Players…
The smoothest Denon CD player I owned (hands-down) was the DCD-1500. My second favorite was the DCD-1520. The worst sounding was the DCD-3000. It reminded me of the PMA-980R. The DCD-1290 was ok, but really didn’t have much body to its sound. It had a nice pitch-control feature though. The dcd-1700 was nice, but sounded thin compared to the DCD-1500. The 1500 sounded bold, full, but smooth and non-harsh.

Power Amps…
The POA-2200 was clean and loud, but again sounded thin to me in the bass region. It reminded me of the DRA-835, except a lot louder. The POA-8300 was excellent. Well defined bass, smooth, full mids and clean highs that were not harsh or bright at all. I believe the POA-8300, as well as the POA-8200 and POA-5200 are sleepers in the amp market. You can find them relatively inexpensive (compared to other power amps) and their sound quality is much, much better than most of their equivalents. I believe another very nice sounding piece (though never owned) is the PMA-2000R. In my opinion, the POA-8300 sounded much better than the POA-2200.

Conclusion & Home Theater…
It would seem I used the word “thin” a lot to describe some of the models. I used “thin” to describe the lack of bass response when comparing to other gear. Perhaps too the lesser bass I am referring is also causing the sound to be brighter too? Of all the Denon gear mentioned, the 625 had the best bass response, along with the POA-8300 and DRA-1035. I’m wondering how the PMA-900V will favor? As for design teams, it seems as though the 70’s & 80’s were really nice in terms of sound quality. To me, the 90’s were a little rough at times, with the 00’s and on being a little better? I have to keep in mind too, the 90’s was at the height of the HT craze; so all the manufacturers were putting their design dollars into the HT stuff. I do currently own a Denon AVR-3600 HT receiver. I use it on the flat screen only as the factory speakers are awful. I never considered comparing the 2-channel stereo on the AVR-3600 to the DRA-625 and DRA-1035. I wonder?

I have a PMA 757 / 1984 which I always thought sounded pretty good until I recently got my DRA 545R & 635 R.....WOW!....Amazing little sleepers

 

[Artie]

I've got the 55 W/Ch PMA-737, which is a "nice" little integrated. Sound wise, I'd say it's in the same league with others in its class from Pioneer, Sony, Kenwood, etc. But it has a nice feature set. Along with tuner and phono, (with front panel switchable MM/MC, and subsonic filter), it also has two AUX inputs and two true tape monitors. Nice unit if you use multiple sources or tape and EQ

 

[doctor fuse]

One of Denon’s real strength’s is in its vinyl gear.

I have been a fan of their moving coil cartridges for a while - some the most affordable quality pick ups out there. Not so much the famous 103 (sounds very nice but limited tracking ability due to the conical stylus), but their 301, retipped 300, and 110. Great stuff for the price!

And I just picked up a DP-35F turntable for peanuts. Auto shut off doesn’t work, but the thing sounds very, very good (there was something to these “dynamic servotracer” arms!).

Too bad this table seems to be the missing link that evolved into all the cheap black plastic crap tables that soon littered the mid- to late-80s. But blaming Denon would be like blaming Hitchcock for all the execrable slasher flics on the 70s onwards!

 

[Robint]

My first piece of Denon gear was a PMA 737, this led to a PMA 757 and I now use a PMA 777. I have no complaints with sound.the sound, pumped to a pair of Fried Q3's and a Fried subwoofer. To me compares with Sony STR GX9ES playing through KEF 105.4.

 

[Fomoco1649]

I'm a Denon fan; I have been since my first two pieces of gear... a DRA-635R receiver and DCD-1500 CD Player. Two pieces which I believe (according to internet writings here and there) were designed by two different design teams that worked for Denon during two different time periods (80’s & 90’s). In addition to the DRA-635 and DCD-1500, I’ve also owned the following Denon pieces over the past 20 years:

Receivers:
DRA-625
DRA-835R
DRA-1025R
DRA-1035R

Integrateds:
PMA-980R

CD Players:
DCD-1700
DCD-1520
DCD-3000
DCD-1290
DCM-444

Power Amps:
POA-2200
POA-8300

Over time, I've noticed a difference in overall sound characteristics between the older Denon gear (80's) and newer Denon gear (90's). Were there in fact two different Denon design teams? Was one team’s “stuff” better sounding than the other? Please keep in mind, everything written here is just my opinion based on my own listening tests. Condition and age of the gear can clearly be a factor in these subjective tests. Please share your own experiences with your favorite Denon gear. Speakers used during most of this timeframe: Mirage M-3si. Prior speakers: Infinity Kappa 8.1, Paradigm Studio Monitor (original), Infinity RS-IIIa’s. I am looking for the right Denon piece to use with my Mirage speakers. Read more below for what’s on the way.

The Receivers…
I seem to notice a distinct difference in the sound characteristics between the “25” and “35” series. I currently have a DRA-625 and DRA-1035R. The 1035 is currently in the shop for a cleaning, and, maybe an adjustment check because it sounds too glaring and harsh as soon as I reach 9 o’clock on the dial. It’s caps may be shot. Now from initial listening between the DRA-1035 and DRA-625, I immediately noticed that the DRA-1035 bettered the DRA-625 in clarity, soundstage and imaging. However, as it stands now, the DRA-625 is still my somewhat “reference” piece (since that’s all I’ve had for a while now). This particular DRA-625 though it not mine. It belongs to one of my friends--and has been on loan for a while now. The only other Denon pieces I did not like due to being overly harsh sounding was the PMA-980R and DCD-3000.

Of all the “25” Series receivers I have owned, the DRA-625 has the best bass response of any I have compared. Thus far, the DRA-1035 is the only one that has come close. The DRA-1025 is lacking by comparison. I’ve read though the DRA-825 has the same bass response as the DRA-625, but is a little cleaner in sound—possibly due to being optical class-A? I never owned a DRA-825. The DRA-835 in comparison reminded me of the 1025, with the 1025 having a slightly warmer sound. The 825 was clean and full (as in midrange), but a little lean in bass, which perhaps caused it to sound somewhat thin. The 1025 though sounded excellent through the volume range and did not sound harsh in any way. Now, given when I have written here, and the time periods from what I could gather, it would seem that the “25” series may have been designed by the 80’s team. Whereas the “35” series gear was possibly designed by the 90’s team? Same would hold true for the PMA-980R, which I believe was a 90’s production. Does any of this seem to hold true? If so, I guess I seem to favor the 80’s Denon sound vs. the 90’s.

Enter PMA….
This weekend I’m scheduled to pick up a PMA-900V from a local seller in my area. I’ve read the PMA-900V is one of Denon’s best pieces? Denon experts and aficionados please chime in. Given that all is electronically sound with this PMA-900V, I’m very curious to see how this will compare in sound to the DRA-625 and DRA-1035. The only other PMA piece I ever owned was a PMA-980R. I couldn’t stand it. Unless there was something terribly wrong with it, it just had a distinctively cold and harsh sound to it.

The CD Players…
The smoothest Denon CD player I owned (hands-down) was the DCD-1500. My second favorite was the DCD-1520. The worst sounding was the DCD-3000. It reminded me of the PMA-980R. The DCD-1290 was ok, but really didn’t have much body to its sound. It had a nice pitch-control feature though. The dcd-1700 was nice, but sounded thin compared to the DCD-1500. The 1500 sounded bold, full, but smooth and non-harsh.

Power Amps…
The POA-2200 was clean and loud, but again sounded thin to me in the bass region. It reminded me of the DRA-835, except a lot louder. The POA-8300 was excellent. Well defined bass, smooth, full mids and clean highs that were not harsh or bright at all. I believe the POA-8300, as well as the POA-8200 and POA-5200 are sleepers in the amp market. You can find them relatively inexpensive (compared to other power amps) and their sound quality is much, much better than most of their equivalents. I believe another very nice sounding piece (though never owned) is the PMA-2000R. In my opinion, the POA-8300 sounded much better than the POA-2200.

Conclusion & Home Theater…
It would seem I used the word “thin” a lot to describe some of the models. I used “thin” to describe the lack of bass response when comparing to other gear. Perhaps too the lesser bass I am referring is also causing the sound to be brighter too? Of all the Denon gear mentioned, the 625 had the best bass response, along with the POA-8300 and DRA-1035. I’m wondering how the PMA-900V will favor? As for design teams, it seems as though the 70’s & 80’s were really nice in terms of sound quality. To me, the 90’s were a little rough at times, with the 00’s and on being a little better? I have to keep in mind too, the 90’s was at the height of the HT craze; so all the manufacturers were putting their design dollars into the HT stuff. I do currently own a Denon AVR-3600 HT receiver. I use it on the flat screen only as the factory speakers are awful. I never considered comparing the 2-channel stereo on the AVR-3600 to the DRA-625 and DRA-1035. I wonder?

Good Info, thanks….I currently own a PMA 757 amp & a Sansui AU 517 which are both excellent sounding keepers , plenty of power & solid noticeable bass….running them on my JBL / L1 speakers….I just ordered a super clean DRA 635R to compare out of curiosity….any thoughts?

 

[triple20]

I realize this is an old thread with the OP and other members not seen for years but some are still active.

I'll post my question in hopes someone may be able to offer comments about the gear I may have an interest in.

I've always liked the looks of some later 1970's Denon gear but have never heard it so I am curious. Would hate to spend the money then not be satisfied.
The gear I am looking for comments on would be an integrated amp and tuner.

PMA 830 or PMA 850 amps
TU 850 tuner

These make a great looking pair and always wondered about them.

 

[Sevano]

I realize this is an old thread with the OP and other members not seen for years but some are still active.

I'll post my question in hopes someone may be able to offer comments about the gear I may have an interest in.

I've always liked the looks of some later 1970's Denon gear but have never heard it so I am curious. Would hate to spend the money then not be satisfied.
The gear I am looking for comments on would be an integrated amp and tuner.

PMA 830 or PMA 850 amps
TU 850 tuner

These make a great looking pair and always wondered about them.

I have recently acquired a PM850 and it totally blew me away. Very powerful, clean and musical. I have long been a collector of sansuis, pioneers, marantz etc but i am now a Denon convert haha. Spacious, highs, mids and lows nicely balanced. Would love to get a version II with class A op but I think these are super rare here where I am. Really very happy with my purchase. Think they should start a sub forum for Denon on AK.

Sean

 

[triple20]

I have recently acquired a PM850 and it totally blew me away. Very powerful, clean and musical. I have long been a collector of sansuis, pioneers, marantz etc but i am now a Denon convert haha. Spacious, highs, mids and lows nicely balanced. Would love to get a version II with class A op but I think these are super rare here where I am. Really very happy with my purchase. Think they should start a sub forum for Denon on AK.

Sean

Thank you very much for the fantastic review.
If I get the chance,a set of these will come home with me.