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Difference between .WAV, FLAC, and different sample rates of MP3

Smaug

Smaug

Super Member
This is my understanding, after reading here a while. Please (gently) correct me if I'm wrong.

  • .WAV = lossless, uncompressed. Format used on CDs. Sampled at 44 Mbps
  • FLAC = Free Lossless Audio Codec. Compressed. (but how can it be both compressed AND lossless?) Seems like a win/win, except that it requires certain software to decode it. Digital, portable, takes less memory than WAV, but more than 320 kbps MP3. But can't play it just anywhere, like we can with WAV or MP3.
  • MP3 @ 128 kbps = Minimum decent sounding MP3 bitrate. Industry calls it "CD quality," but we can hear the pixelation of the highs sometimes. This is for undiscerning listeners who are trying to save memory.
  • MP3 @ 160 kbps = pixelation and compression artifacts at high frequencies are not generally perceptible?
  • MP3 @ 320 kbps = minimum amount of compression in this format. Saves space but is much closer to CD quality. Generally accepted as high quality. (outside of here, at least)
That said, can anyone here actually tell the difference between 320 kbps MP3 and lossless in a blind test? If so, how is the difference perceived?
 
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I can tell the difference between a 320 MP3 and FLAC. Depends on the source material, and I can only tell through headphones, but it's a sense of air or space more than anything else.

What FLAC does, is it takes bits that are below the noise floor and discards them. So if a bass guitar goes only as low as say 30 hz, then FLAC says "you don't need all these blank digitals from 1 hz to 25 hz" and dumps it. Almost like a subsonic filter. Same for the high end, I would assume.
 
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Even higher res MP3s can be p0wned with a good system. Never an issue with lossless formats like WAV and FLAC. My vote goes to FLAC because it handles tags and cover art gracefully. WAV ... not so much.

MP3 is lossy, which basically means it's throwing away music every time you save (rewrite) it. Change a tag? The music takes a hit. Biggest difference between lossy and lossless is, as you'd expect, file size. That was an issue back in the digital stone ages (anyone else remember 2005?) but not so much anymore.

Where lossless formats shine is that they never degrade. I rip a lot of vinyl to uncompressed WAV and do any post processing in that format, and finally save to FLAC for the HTPC audio collection. MP3 encoding ALWAYS loses music with every save, so it's not recommended for that sort of thing.

Not that I got anything against MP3 for portable use ... I burn my "hit lists" to 256VBR and transfer random selections of those to thumb drives for use in the car and on the bike. Also perfect for portable players that have limited storage capacity.

PS ... good test for me ... I buy CDs at Amazon, and most have AutoRip available, allowing you to download MP3 copies of the disk. I'll load those up and play those while I wait for the snail mail to hit the doorstep. Most of those digital files don't sound half bad, but they don't really compare to the CD's redbook resolution once I get the physical disc and rip it to the HTPC. A lot of it actually sounds quite harsh in comparison, but ... certainly listenable in the interim if you're in a hurry.
 
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WAV is original raw PCM encoded signal. FLAC is the same original PCM encoded signal compressed with something that reminds ZIP for files (original can be extracted from it without any loss). MP3 is signal encoded with "perceptual" algorithm, some sound that "supposedly" people do not hear wasx removed (original signal CANNOT be extracted). MP3 can have different degree of compression - the lower is bitrate, the more information was removed from original and thus restored signal is LESS similar to original
 
... and worth mentioning ... with MP3, once it's gone, it's gone ...

And also, once a big advantage, MP3 tends to be better supported for playback on portable devices. I say once, because that as well is going the way of the tiny hard drive, making MP3 a harder choice if you're really into quality. I know a jogger with $300 headsets and lots of storage on her portable, and she can tell the difference bouncing down the trail, and prefers FLAC.

For me, bopping down da boulevard at 70mph on the bike ... not so much. <G>

Swamp Trash said:
What FLAC does, is it takes bits that are below the noise floor and discards them. So if a bass guitar goes only as low as say 30 hz, then FLAC says "you don't need all these blank digitals from 1 hz to 25 hz" and dumps it. Almost like a subsonic filter. Same for the high end, I would assume.
Click to expand...

Kinda sorta ... FLAC is true lossless and doesn't actually toss ANY real music data ... what it can do is replace identical passages such as silence, with RLE markers. Sounds kinda weird, but nothing can take up some significant space, so this can add up to appreciable reduction in file size depending on the source. From my experience, there's really not that much difference in file size between WAV and FLAC. Of course, that could be mostly because I use it for ripping vinyl, which will have SOME sound even in the quietest passages. I suppose I could get rid of that even with more aggressive processing, but moderation is key ... get too crazy and like with MP3 encoding, you'll start losing actual music.
 
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Forgot something?

The Apple Lossless Audio Codec (ALAC) is an audio codec developed by Apple and supported on iPhone, iPad, most iPods, Mac and iTunes.ALAC is a data compression method which reduces the size of audio files with no loss of information.
Click to expand...
 
Swamp Trash said:
What FLAC does, is it takes bits that are below the noise floor and discards them. So if a bass guitar goes only as low as say 30 hz, then FLAC says "you don't need all these blank digitals from 1 hz to 25 hz" and dumps it. Almost like a subsonic filter. Same for the high end, I would assume.
Click to expand...

Huh?
 
My experience w/ MP3 bit rates ... Caveat: Only been listening to these formats a short while and my gear
is in the mid fi category.

128kpbs AAC (MP4) sounds as good as 192kbps MP3 on my FiiO X1 Dap w/ conventional headphones. Experimented with higher bit rates and could not tell a really noticeable difference.

320kbps sounds way better than 192kpbs MP3 on streaming ... Audioengine A2 Speakers w/ Schiit Audio Modi Dac. When My RDIO select account ended (320kbps) and switch to 192kbps ... noticed the difference immediately. Was not told about the date/time of the switch. Just sounded "off" ... not a good as before.

Well recorded hard media (LP's & CD"s) make really nice sounding MP3 & AAC (MP4) files.

Based on my very limited experience ... I'm thinking that results are both platform & source (recording) dependent.
 
Condorsat said:
My experience w/ MP3 bit rates ... Caveat: Only been listening to these formats a short while and my gear
is in the mid fi category.

128kpbs AAC (MP4) sounds as good as 192kbps MP3 on my FiiO X1 Dap w/ conventional headphones. Experimented with higher bit rates and could not tell a really noticeable difference.

320kbps sounds way better than 192kpbs MP3 on streaming ... Audioengine A2 Speakers w/ Schiit Audio Modi Dac. When My RDIO select account ended (320kbps) and switch to 192kbps ... noticed the difference immediately. Was not told about the date/time of the switch. Just sounded "off" ... not a good as before.

Well recorded hard media (LP's & CD"s) make really nice sounding MP3 & AAC (MP4) files.

Based on my very limited experience ... I'm thinking that results are both platform & source (recording) dependent.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that experience, Condorsat. Can you tell the difference between 320 kbps MP3 and CD?
 
Smaug said:
Thanks for that experience, Condorsat. Can you tell the difference between 320 kbps MP3 and CD?
Click to expand...

Yes (on well recorded CD's ) ... but I'm crossing platforms. I play my CD's on a standard CD players through speakers (living room) & headphone rig in my media room.

I play online streaming through my PC rig in my media room ... not as good an audio set-up as the other two rigs.

I'm getting a lap top over the holidays and am going to hook it up to a Schiit Audio Modi 2 Uber Dac > living room rig. I'll be playing Spotify Premium (MP3 320kbps) through that. Then I will be able to give the MP3 a fair hearing on my rig vs CD's.

As stated earlier ... different platforms can lead you to different conclusions in my experience.
 
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