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Discrepancy in one channel...

Hmmm,,, never thought of the clip leads as capacitors,,, figured they would act more as antennas, to pick up noise... it is stone quiet, tho...
Lots of good stuff to try, thanks for the input... Maybe I should build it in the metal chassis, and tune it from there....

Regards,
John
 
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I just noticed the wood chassis! Is there not any shielding on the top side?

As a troubleshooting aid, put a 47,000 ohm resistor between the grid of the the driver tube, and that heavy copper ground bus, and see if it helps. Make sure to solder it in place, don't attach it with long clip leads. I am thinking it is possible that high input impedance plus no shielding at all is making it sensitive to oscillation.
Also check to make sure your volume pot is wired properly. Middle terminal to grid of first tube, other two terminals to ground and signal IN.

Tried the 47k no change...I agree with the wood chassis being part of the problem, as I can shield the tubes with my hand and it is fine...

As soon as I get the PS dialed in, I'll build it in the chassis, or maybe, just build the amp in the chassis first, and see if it cures the oscillation...
VC is correct, think I'll put the old one back in, better feel then the new one!!
Appreciate the input...

Regards,
John
 
maybe try the capacitor to ground on other pins of the tube to see if one makes it quit. I've also seen cases where it needs 100 or so ohm resistors with a short lead between the coupling capacitor and the grid of the output tube, or the same thing with the screen on the output tube.

The 100pF cap, grd to grid (pin 1 6SL7), makes it stop oscillating, but produces hum...
Do you mean put the resistor between grid and screen (6L6 pins 4 & 5)?

I really think the problem is the way the test boards are laid out, no shielding, long clip leads, etc.... It works too well to have a design problem...

Regards,
John
 
Shielding the driver with a tin can stops the oscillation also,,, think it will be fine once its in the chassis,,,

Thanks for all the info,
Regards,
John
 
Update,,,
Replaced the Realistic 6L6GCs withe the GE 7581s, no more problems... nice clear waveforms...

Regards,
John
 
The 100pF cap, grd to grid (pin 1 6SL7), makes it stop oscillating, but produces hum...
Do you mean put the resistor between grid and screen (6L6 pins 4 & 5)?

I really think the problem is the way the test boards are laid out, no shielding, long clip leads, etc.... It works too well to have a design problem...

Regards,
John

The resistor can go in series with the coupling cap, on the 6L6 grid side. In that setup, its called a grid stopper resistor. They're occasionally used to kill off oscillation problems.

This is probably a better explanation of it, along with a formula to pick a more suitable value. 100 ohm happened to come to mind, though its probably because thats whats used on screens.

http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/gridstopper.html
 
The resistor can go in series with the coupling cap, on the 6L6 grid side. In that setup, its called a grid stopper resistor. They're occasionally used to kill off oscillation problems.

This is probably a better explanation of it, along with a formula to pick a more suitable value. 100 ohm happened to come to mind, though its probably because thats whats used on screens.

http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/gridstopper.html

Thanks for the link,,, I'll study it...
Started to modify the Heathkit chassis to fit the amp in,,, think it will work out well...

Thanks again for all your help...
Regards,
John
 
I tried the grid resistors, and caps to get rid of the oscillation , but it didn't work... So, I tried a pair of 6SN7s in place of the 6SL7's, and the distortion is gone... I realize those tubes aren't supposed to be interchangeable, they have different gains, and heater draw... however, they worked... I can adjust the VC to any level, and there is a clean wave from both channels on the scope... Unless the 6SL7s are bad, (they test good), I don't know why the distortion stopped...
Any thoughts/ideas are welcome...

Regards,
John
 
Did you go back to the 6L6s from the 7581s? You said the oscillation stopped in a previous post, but now it's back and I'm wondering what changed.

Given the symptoms and tube subbing discussed I just wonder if it's too much feedback being applied. Have you verified that the amp is stable without the feedback loop connected?

Also, what is the purpose of the 47pf cap in series with the 330 ohm resistor in the cathode circuit of the first tube? I think for base line testing w/o feedback, I would also start by disconnecting it.
 
Did you go back to the 6L6s from the 7581s? You said the oscillation stopped in a previous post, but now it's back and I'm wondering what changed.

Given the symptoms and tube subbing discussed I just wonder if it's too much feedback being applied. Have you verified that the amp is stable without the feedback loop connected?

Also, what is the purpose of the 47pf cap in series with the 330 ohm resistor in the cathode circuit of the first tube? I think for base line testing w/o feedback, I would also start by disconnecting it.

7581s are still in the amp,,, the oscillation/distortion showed up while I was playing CDs, and adjusting the VC,,, if only one channel is playing, there is no problem, when a 2nd channel is added, the distortion starts, shows up as full waves (correct term?) on eh scope...
I'm thinking OPTs are not exactly the same value, I replaced on yesterday, and to a closer matching one, and got a little less distortion...

Haven't tried it without FB, but it makes sense, as I don't have a matched set of output transformers, so I guess I really can't tune in without them...

There are 4 iterations of this amp, I used teh 3rd one,,,
The schems and write up is here,,,http://gabevee.tripod.com/setube.html

I had been trying teh grid resistors as others suggested, but, I'm sure teh FB is wrong with teh OPTs I'm using...

Thanks for all your help...
Regards,
John
 
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Actially you do - your computer. At 192 kHz sampling mode mode square wave is sufficiently right. Or use output of oscilloscope calibrator.

OK,,, I'll have to learn how to do that...
Is the oscilloscope calibrator on teh scope?

Thanks for the info,
Regards,
John
 
Not 47 pF its a .47uF cap,,, used as a bypass, I think...

Got it. But the original schematic says it should be 47 uF (not 0.47 uF).

Adding the cathode bypass will increase gain of the first stage. If you are going to use an outboard active preamp, you won't need the extra gain, and in that case I would definitely remove the cathode bypass cap (and the associated series resistor). I'm guessing the amp will sound better overall too, without the cathode bypass. Looking at how to do the feedback, I prefer the fourth version shown at that link (feedback taken to a junction of 1K and 330 ohms).

Concerning the amount of feedback to add, in place of the 8.2K feedback resistor, temporarily clip in a 50K pot. Hook up your bench speaker, ground the input, and then slowly dial down the pot starting at the high end. This process will slowly add more and more feedback. At some point the amp will go unstable and you'll hear thumps, whistles, chirps, etc from the speaker. That is the point of the onset of too much feedback which causes the amp to become unstable. Remove the pot from the circuit and measure it. You need a feedback resistor larger than that measured size to keep the amp stable. This exercise simply determines the maximum amount of feedback that can be applied. Now try it for the other channel, and if the output transformers have the same characteristics, you should get the same (or very close) measured reading on the pot.

As to how much feedback you should add, that depends on what sounds best to you. Try a few different resistor values (keeping them larger than the min value you determined through the above exercise) and see what floats your boat! If you play music through the amp, and adding feedback does not reduce the output volume discernibly, it means you've added very little feedback and probably not enough to do any significant good.

If you had a signal generator, you could be much more precise about it, but the above should get you into the ball park anyway.
 
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Given the symptoms and tube subbing discussed I just wonder if it's too much feedback being applied. Have you verified that the amp is stable without the feedback loop connected?

Also, what is the purpose of the 47pf cap in series with the 330 ohm resistor in the cathode circuit of the first tube? I think for base line testing w/o feedback, I would also start by disconnecting it.

I just disconnected the FB circuit completely, oscillation is still there, without a signal... That also takes the 47/50V cap out of the ckt...
I read too quickly this morning, and thought you meant the .47/450V cap around the 250/450V cap...

I tried it with the 6SL7s,,, can't rule out one of the tubes at this point... however, it doesn't oscillate with only one channel...

Regards,
John
 
Got it. But the original schematic says it should be 47 uF (not 0.47 uF).

Adding the cathode bypass will increase gain of the first stage. If you are going to use an outboard active preamp, you won't need the extra gain, and in that case I would definitely remove the cathode bypass cap (and the associated series resistor). I'm guessing the amp will sound better overall too, without the cathode bypass. Looking at how to do the feedback, I prefer the fourth version shown at that link (feedback taken to a junction of 1K and 330 ohms).

Concerning the amount of feedback to add, in place of the 8.2K feedback resistor, temporarily clip in a 50K pot. Hook up your bench speaker, ground the input, and then slowly dial down the pot starting at the high end. This process will slowly add more and more feedback. At some point the amp will go unstable and you'll hear thumps, whistles, chirps, etc from the speaker. That is the point of the onset of too much feedback which causes the amp to become unstable. Remove the pot from the circuit and measure it. You need a feedback resistor larger than that measured size to keep the amp stable. This exercise simply determines the maximum amount of feedback that can be applied. Now try it for the other channel, and if the output transformers have the same characteristics, you should get the same (or very close) measured reading on the pot.

As to how much feedback you should add, that depends on what sounds best to you. Try a few different resistor values (keeping them larger than the min value you determined through the above exercise) and see what floats your boat! If you play music through the amp, and adding feedback does not reduce the output volume discernibly, it means you've added very little feedback and probably not enough to do any significant good.

If you had a signal generator, you could be much more precise about it, but the above should get you into the ball park anyway.

Thanks Kevin,
I think I understand what you are saying,,, I purposely didn't use the 4th schematic because it also linked the screens and grids of the 6L6s together, and I used gas regulators for the screens...Now I see they aren't involved with the FB circuit...

I didn't respond to your FB mods, as disconnecting it altogether didn't eliminate the oscillation... I can try the exercise just to learn, however, it sounds like you are saying the amp doesn't need FB at all?

I added the VCs, they are not part of the schematics... so, if I don't need a preamp for gain, I won't use one,,, less "stuff" in the signal path...

Thank again for the continuing support...
Regards,
John
 
Update....
I rewired the FB loop as per the 4th iteration, removing that 47 uF lytic, and connected the 1k to the 330... and all is well!!!
Waves are clear as a bell, no distortion, oscillation thru VC range... Limiting factor seems to be the lousy shop speakers, and output Tx,,,I'll try it on a better set, before any other changes/mods...
Still think it would be worth while to try the 50K pot, and see if it improves? Probably better to find a GOOD pair of OPTs, before tuning any more....

This is kinda like building engines, they all have a different personality, gotta run them for a while, before you know whatcha got!!!!! Think I'll spend the afternoon listening and measuring... This ones a keeper tho!
Thanks again, for the help, however I'm sure to need more!!

Regards,
John
 
Awesome! Yes, I was recommending only changing how the feedback was connected to the cathode, but keeping all other parts of the build the same as you've currently got. It sounds like that's exactly what you did.

I think feedback in a single ended amp is not necessarily a bad thing, but how much to apply to make it sound the best--that's up to you. Appears like your over the steepest part of this hill now...good luck!
 
Awesome! Yes, I was recommending only changing how the feedback was connected to the cathode, but keeping all other parts of the build the same as you've currently got. It sounds like that's exactly what you did.

I think feedback in a single ended amp is not necessarily a bad thing, but what sounds best--that's up to you. Appears like your over the steepest part of this hill now...good luck!

Thanks,,, Good teachers make it Awesome!!! Thanks for your patience and help... I'm catching on........Slowly...

I'm gonna listen to it a while as is... keep an eye on V, and find a nice pair of matching OPTs...
Think this is a good design? I think others here have built a version of this amp...

Regards,
John
 
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