• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Ditton 15 with 8 inch full range drivers?

Register to hide this ad
Why bother? The Ditton 15 is a fine speaker in it's standard form, they sold thousands of them for good reason.
 
Why bother? The Ditton 15 is a fine speaker in it's standard form, they sold thousands of them for good reason.
Yep, fair enough. I guess I was taken in by the guy's very convincing sales pitch on Ebay. And also the idea that modern full range drivers (which I don't have any experience of) might have a fair superior rendering of detail- though again, was just curious about this really!
 
Yep, fair enough. I guess I was taken in by the guy's very convincing sales pitch on Ebay. And also the idea that modern full range drivers (which I don't have any experience of) might have a fair superior rendering of detail- though again, was just curious about this really!
Yeah I don’t see why anyone would replace a passive which is basically a port with full ranger .... I could understand replacing woofer with one but you might need new x overs.
Full rangers are nice but I’ve never had a pair , there are some builds though for horn loaded ones .
 
I'm the bloke recommending such an idea. . . .

For many years I've been a Lowther addict. The realism of full range units with a back horn is rather good.

And for some time I developed speakers especially designed to make signals from electronic organs sound like the real pipes they were intended to reproduce and sound real.

For instance:
explores a full gamut of electronically and electroacoustically generated sound.

In the course of analysing how to reproduce sounds as real I came to the conclusion that crossovers between 500hz and 2khz split the tonality of what we hear, splitting the fundamental frequency from its aliquots, partials, harmonics. So none of the speakers on that instrument use crossovers.

This is something, on another subject, that I particularly pay attention to in tuning pianos http://hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/tuning-seminar.pdf

When we speak or sing, we don't produce a fundamental from a big mouth and all the upper frequencies from another. :) And then there's the matter of acceleration of the cone. This came home to me when assisting on a band production and the producers insisted on using standard two way studio monitors. On guttural consonants such as "k" there was a thump and a click to the sound as the two units really didn't work together.

In PA speakers this has a terrible effect. We like hearing detail in the midrange and so, with systems with confused mid, split between two units, the volume tends to be put up, so as to produce treble to tinnitus inducing levels.

Full range units, unless having very high magnetic fields, go really high evenly into the 8k-20k range. And unless horn loaded, they cannot produce bass without a lot of cone movement which then produces doppler distortion of higher frequencies.

So where we have a low efficiency 2 or 3 way speaker with two 8 inch holes, such as the Ditton 15 (and there is another Ditton similarly, I don't remember the designation, might be a 200 or something like that) or a Wharfedale Laser 120 (not tried but the B&W DM220 looks a candidate too) then one can remove the 8 inch midrange (built as a woofer rather than a midrange anyway) or Acoustic Bass Radiator inserted merely to enhance cabinet volume, and run a full range unit in its place as full range, leaving the low efficiency old woofer and tweeter to extend and smooth the extremities of the system where the full range is tailing off.

One's looking for original cabinets of around 85 to 88dB effciency and full range units from around 90 to 95 dB efficiency and the result is magic.

I sell units on ebay based on vintage JMC Audio cone design from Taiwan and I enhance these with a Lowther dimension whizzer cone extension to give the Lowther sort of emphasis. But any full range units with a whizzer will do. I like Audio Nirvana, and especially the Chinese 97dB Lowther Challenge units on ebay from Hong Kong from seller Anitaydavid, although these are a bit strong in such an application.

The result is excellent. When I did a pair of the larger Celestion speakers for an organ friend listening I almost wondered why I bothered with Lowther and horns. But the back horn gives more "air" to the sound.

Certainly as civilised size speakers, the result is great. Sons have purloined two pairs for university and I purloined one pair back for lecturing last year
where I needed top rate sound reproduction and where ordinary standard speakers just would not do.

If one has a two or three way speaker with a 6 inch hole the Fostex FE series 6 inch units are excellent. In the 8 inch size the Fostex units aren't as successful to my ears, treble tailing off and too directional.

By adopting this sort of solution you're upgrading £100 speakers to the sound of £1000 - £10,000 units.

No doubt the proud owners of expensive brand conventional speakers won't like such news, but the results obtainable are remarkable.

Best wishes

David P
 
Last edited:
I would need to hear Ditton 15's altered in such a way. Preconceptions say no but they could sound superb.

There was only the one time I'd heard an enclosure where an active was substituted for a passive. He who performed the modification thought it a vast improvement. I on the other hand, thought the opposite. To me, the newly installed active driver (a 10" in this case) wired as full range dominated the what was once the woofer (8") and the tweeter.

They became capable of greater loudness, and maybe that was the intent, but a lot of detail was lost or subdued.

Once a duplicate pair of passive radiators were located, it was easy to revert them to what they were. .
 
To me, the newly installed active driver (a 10" in this case) wired as full range dominated the what was once the woofer (8") and the tweeter.

They became capable of greater loudness, and maybe that was the intent, but a lot of detail was lost or subdued..

Hmm. Alterations have to be done with specific objectives. If not, one will end up with a Frankenunit. As far as I'm concerned, 10 inch and larger units miss out on treble and midrange detail per se. 6 inch units are better for treble whilst 8 inch units give a compromise that's successful. To create a top rate speaker the full range unit has to be competent, and the original speaker's units are there for background support and extension.

Best wishes

David P
 
A good xover and driver alignment in a multi-way speaker system should act as a single driver on impulse testing and in listening.
 
Well in theory yes but in practice there are enough full-range addicts to suggest that the full-range brings something to the table over which crossovers have difficulty in leaping.

The proof of the pudding's in the eating so no amount of verbal description on a forum thread can substitute for doing the experiment, listening and experiencing.

Get a pair of the Ditton 15s (I think it's the 200 model also that can take the mod), and a not very expensive full range driver and try it. Bearing in mind that the treble's enhanced by the tweeter even a cheap £10 8 inch "chassis driver" can be good enough to try the trick as an indication of what's possible. I give ideas not to define a solution but to encourage experiment and, having done it, can assure you that it works.

Best wishes

David P
 
Sounds like a Wicks had a date with a Schlicker in front of a Klais. Interesting stuff.
 
For all the hilarity, mockery and incredulity, today I handed over a pair of Celestion Ditton 200 back to the owner upgraded with my version full-range units (currently on https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PAIR-8-f...a-or-upgrade-Celestion-Ditton-15/203171061304). The transformation was very much appreciated by the owner. The clarity of Lowther at minimal cost in comparison without bulky backhorn loaded box, immediacy of sound together with the extended range of the original woofer instead of a backhorn and the original tweeter filling in off-axis as my fullrange drivers are quite directional.

The owner had a pair of £3000 well reputed speakers and says that the modified Celestions now open up a new dimension of listening to him, much better than his old 3-way speakers, which he's now going to put on ebay. The Wharfedale Laser 120 is another candidate for this upgrade.

Whilst doing the upgrade I applied a 1.5V cell to the terminals to check phasing and realised why the original speakers are in comparison second-rate. The fullrange unit moved immediately. The original Celestion was sluggish and took a comparative age to move. In full-range addict-speak this effect is known as "having speed".

Why bother? The Ditton 15 is a fine speaker in it's standard form, they sold thousands of them for good reason.

Because people didn't know better. They assumed that a brand knew what they were doing. They assumed that progress must be better. They assumed that "scientifically" produced gizzmos with woofers and tweeters and complicated crossovers would be better. Full-range will always win for immediacy and clarity but the original woofer tweeter can be helpful in a supporting role for bass and above 8kHz where if one's designing a unit, a first order capacitor in series with the tweeter at that crossover point is all that's required.

Best wishes

David P
 
Back
Top Bottom