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Do all solid state amps sound the same?

In someones example (Spl) Emerson or Soundesign vs Krell or something high end. Seems like you'd have to compare them at pretty low power at which point; does the high end stuff sound that different at 1 or 2 watts? Assuming were not hooking up a pair of Apogees to an emerson. I'm thinking maybe to level the field we might want to stick with an 8 ohm load or so?

From first hand experience comparing a Levinson 432 (something most would consider high end) against even older high end, but lower powered class A/B units from Sony, Heyrbrook, Robert Grodinsky and McCormack, there are indeed a lot of similarities at first listen especially considering the price differences we are talking about. This was on 8ohm speakers, my Sony SS-m7 as well as a pair of PSB Synchrony Ones at a local shop. But differences become more apparent after even a few minutes. The Sony (TA-3200f) had a notable coloration to the sound. I guess what many would call graininess. Certainly this could partly be explained by the age of the amplifier (not its design but by the age of the components within). It did not have the natural sounding timbre of the others, particularly the Levinson (and a late '70s Sony class-a amplifier, the TA-n86b). Nor did it have the sense of space. It had subjectively 'more' bass, though that doesn't mean the bass sounded more realistic or even subjectively better.

The Grodinsky Model 5 and the Levinson were similar in many ways. Both could be described as smooth sounding amps. The common usage of words like smooth, grainy, dark, bright..suggests to me that many others don't think all amps sound alike, either. The most notable difference on easy to drive speakers was the sense of space portrayed, the quietness of the background, and possibly related to that, the way they handled reverb and room information. Both presented a large soundstage but the Levinson was much more subtle about it. The reverb was allowed to decay very naturally until it was inaudible while with the Grodinsky it seemed to trail off more quickly, as if it was being cut short. Very subtly, and it wasn't anything I'd noticed until a head to head comparison on the PSB Synchronys. The McCormack DNA .5 sounds a lot like the Grodinsky amp, though I'd say it has a bit of a darker sound too it. I only listened to that amp for a short time, though, as it wasn't mine.

The Heybrook P2 is a Tim de Paravicini design, and a nice little 70-80wpc amplifier from the '80s. At low volume without a lot of dynamic peaks in the music it doesn't sound remarkably different than the Levinson. When dynamics hit, it loses out. It, and every other amp I have, loses out to the Levinson in the overall effortlessness of the sound. The 432 simply does not seem to be there, at all. The others, make themselves known by slightly squashing dyamics, slight timbre colorations, and a less expansive sense of space. All of those things are less apparent at low volume. Also, with more efficient speakers some differences related to overall power would of course be lessened. With more demanding speakers the Heybrook can sound anemic and takes on a slightly fatiguing character. It sounds really great on easy to drive speakers in smaller rooms, though. Which, being a small British amplifier is probably what it was designed for..the smaller rooms common in many English homes.

It doesn't do much good, really, to only compare amps within their operating range. Because how well an amp deals with things like sudden dynamic peaks or difficult loads is often why they are more expensive. It's like saying "This expensive amp sounds like a cheap amp when not asked to do anything that an expensive amp is designed to handle". That said, even at low volume, there are things like subtle dynamic shifts, timbre, note decay and smooth high end response that a lot of cheap amplifiers don't do too well with.

None of this was scientific but that does not mean that I don't think science should play a huge role in the design of our gear..I just listen subjectively so these are my subjective thoughts on the comparisons.
 
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There is also differentiation between the sound and the capabilities of the amps, some people will not/do not separate them, others, including myself, do...at least sometimes.

Example...playing one of my pro amps tickling the clipping indicators (~1,200 wpc, or more) vs playing at "normal" levels using maybe a watt. The sound of the amp is what's happening at 1 watt, the capability of the amp is what's happening at 1,200 wpc and 4 ohms, or whatever. Certainly there is some relation, but again, I do believe these factors can be viewed separately. It's generally the "1 watt sound" that most people are using in the basis of "all amps sound the same", because clearly one of these pro amps dishing out kilowatts of power has totally different capability than a Sonic T amp putting out 5 or 10 watts of power.
 
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The only "real" answer is for you to try some of this testing for yourself. Asking a forum will get you no clearer understanding.

Even the premise of the question is leading. "Do all amps sound the same?" Clearly the answer is no, or as someone else said, there is no answer because nobody will be able to try all amps.

However, "At what point can the typical, stereo-inclined Joe differentiate the sound of amps?" is a completely different question, and is more the real point of the often mis-quoted "all amps sound the same" thing.

How dare you call me typical?:D

I hear differences in the sound of the SS power amps I have on hand.
Hafler DH-200
Adcom GFA-535 and 545
Crown XLS402
Kenwood KM-106
In my bedroom system they all sound pretty much the same. In my main system they all sound quite different. The exception is the Adcoms. They are very very close, except the 545 has more authoritative bass. Also, one runs out of power before the other but that's it.

Could it be the speakers, the cables and wires or the gear? It's irrelevant. They sound different!
 
There is a huge difference in SS sound based on following factors:

Age and condition of caps
State of tune -- bias and offset set correctly
Speed of amp -- slew rate and rise time
Accuracy -- rounding, overshoot, ringing, tilting defects
Power rating -- the more, the less chance of sag
 
The only "real" answer is for you to try some of this testing for yourself. Asking a forum will get you no clearer understanding.

Even the premise of the question is leading. "Do all amps sound the same?" Clearly the answer is no, or as someone else said, there is no answer because nobody will be able to try all amps.

However, "At what point can the typical, stereo-inclined Joe differentiate the sound of amps?" is a completely different question, and is more the real point of the often mis-quoted "all amps sound the same" thing.

"Real" is more than just subjective.
 
This all leads me to ask the OP- How many solid state amplifiers have you heard? Have you directly compared-a/b'd them in the same set-up ( 3 or more different SS amps at the same time.) Your generalization about SS amps is way off base if you ask me.:nono:
 
From first hand experience comparing a Levinson 432 (something most would consider high end) against even older high end, but lower powered class A/B units from Sony, Heyrbrook, Robert Grodinsky and McCormack, there are indeed a lot of similarities at first listen especially considering the price differences we are talking about. This was on 8ohm speakers, my Sony SS-m7 as well as a pair of PSB Synchrony Ones at a local shop. But differences become more apparent after even a few minutes. The Sony (TA-3200f) had a notable coloration to the sound. I guess what many would call graininess. Certainly this could partly be explained by the age of the amplifier (not its design but by the age of the components within). It did not have the natural sounding timbre of the others, particularly the Levinson (and a late '70s Sony class-a amplifier, the TA-n86b). Nor did it have the sense of space. It had subjectively 'more' bass, though that doesn't mean the bass sounded more realistic or even subjectively better.

The Grodinsky Model 5 and the Levinson were similar in many ways. Both could be described as smooth sounding amps. The common usage of words like smooth, grainy, dark, bright..suggests to me that many others don't think all amps sound alike, either. The most notable difference on easy to drive speakers was the sense of space portrayed, the quietness of the background, and possibly related to that, the way they handled reverb and room information. Both presented a large soundstage but the Levinson was much more subtle about it. The reverb was allowed to decay very naturally until it was inaudible while with the Grodinsky it seemed to trail off more quickly, as if it was being cut short. Very subtly, and it wasn't anything I'd noticed until a head to head comparison on the PSB Synchronys. The McCormack DNA .5 sounds a lot like the Grodinsky amp, though I'd say it has a bit of a darker sound too it. I only listened to that amp for a short time, though, as it wasn't mine.

The Heybrook P2 is a Tim de Paravicini design, and a nice little 70-80wpc amplifier from the '80s. At low volume without a lot of dynamic peaks in the music it doesn't sound remarkably different than the Levinson. When dynamics hit, it loses out. It, and every other amp I have, loses out to the Levinson in the overall effortlessness of the sound. The 432 simply does not seem to be there, at all. The others, make themselves known by slightly squashing dyamics, slight timbre colorations, and a less expansive sense of space. All of those things are less apparent at low volume. Also, with more efficient speakers some differences related to overall power would of course be lessened. With more demanding speakers the Heybrook can sound anemic and takes on a slightly fatiguing character. It sounds really great on easy to drive speakers in smaller rooms, though. Which, being a small British amplifier is probably what it was designed for..the smaller rooms common in many English homes.

It doesn't do much good, really, to only compare amps within their operating range. Because how well an amp deals with things like sudden dynamic peaks or difficult loads is often why they are more expensive. It's like saying "This expensive amp sounds like a cheap amp when not asked to do anything that an expensive amp is designed to handle". That said, even at low volume, there are things like subtle dynamic shifts, timbre, note decay and smooth high end response that a lot of cheap amplifiers don't do too well with.

None of this was scientific but that does not mean that I don't think science should play a huge role in the design of our gear..I just listen subjectively so these are my subjective thoughts on the comparisons.

Could you blindly identify the amps?
 
i heard clear differences between a yamaha a420 that i had for 20 years..a sansui au-719 that replaced it..an akai am-u7..jvc ax-2..rotel ra-1412..hitachi ha-3..mission cyrus one..and most recently an akai 1175...as well as several others that have passed through my hands over the years...some sound fluid..some sound edgy..some are thin sounding..some obscure minute details...some sound harsh..some smooth..some just outright sound like crap..

age is obviously a factor... but things like resolution.. depth ..detail..bass and treble quality as opposed to 'quantity'..are all things that are not only audibly different..but generally with a half decent source digital or analog...are often blatantly obvious...

most noticeable in my experience..is the difference between dual mono amps and those whose left and right channels share the same power supply... that was the biggest revelation in my own system...especially given that the amp in question was nearing 30 years old when i bought it...a sansui au -719...:scratch2:
 
Off base? Notice I tried to keep my opinion to myself.

My original posting was just to get a feel for the opinions of those on this forum vs. What I'd been reading on AVS forum. I'm not a regular there but found a thread about a JBL receiver I was looking into Jbl dcr600. The op had just replaced the Jbl with an HK 3490 I believe. He asked how one amp could sound different from another. I was interested further to learn that the Jbl is apparently a Harman based design. Of course after posting his question the discussion went downhill fast, spiralling into a lot of well... Pointless flame war.

In my experience, there is certainly a difference between my McIntosh and a Technics receiver. But Im gonna try and stay away from "airy" or "ethereal" discriptives.
 
Modern semiconductors (both discrete and IC) tend to have much more consistent performance across instances and time than their vintage-era counterparts and tubes, so compared to those, there is more of a chance that amplifiers with similar design approaches and specs will have similar sound. Certainly, there is more chance than there was 40-50 years ago, when we couldn't always be sure that units of the same model from the same manufacturer would sound the same.

Comparing my own listening experiences today to those of 40-50 years ago, differences between amps of similar spec tend to be a lot more subtle than they used to be. Sometimes I can hear them, sometimes I can't, and even when I can hear them, I can't really say I like one "better" than the other, they're just "different." Most of my audio purchasing decisions of the past 20-30 years have been made on the basis of other features (spec compatibility with the rest of my system, style, user-friendly controls, etc,) rather than listening preferences.
 
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I really would like to move past cables, and wires... So let's assume the use of a "reference" cable and wires to be used on all systems, only difference being the amp. Not to be rude, but I accept that everything makes a difference in the chain, but just the amp.

Again I ask, if you have designed/built amps, is there such a thing as "voicing" an amp?

Art

Most definitely, many so called "warm" amplifiers are the result of deliberate frequency management. I have had many of the amplifiers (whose adherents claim that Yamaha lacks bass) pass through here. In most it is deliberate bass boosting.

So to answer your first question, no they do not all sound the same.

Yes I have designed and built amplifiers but that was with tubes. One was an ultra-linear PP 6BQ5 and at the same time I had a pair of WE program amplifiers with PP WE 310s. They definitely sounded different.
 
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All amps do not sound the same. The better they are, the less you hear them. But many if not most amps make their presence known.

The differences may be small to some people, and huge to others. It depends on what you listen for, what you listen to, and the rest of your system. I think the source and preamp make a bigger difference in the sound. As far as speakers, I don't think you can separate their performance from the amp. One is tied to the other and what speakers you have can influence what kind of amp you have.

A friend of mine 'blueprints' street car engines. To keep in class they have to be to original design specification, but by going over an engine component by component and reducing tolerance errors to as near to zero as possible, the difference he gets is something else. Very occasionally, sometimes this can happen by happy accident; the Winchester effect. Some came off the the assembly line very close to design specification, some did not but crucially, all were within their tolerance limits.

The same applied to bikes. A man I used to work with bought a brand new Norton Interstate (uprated Commando) that consistently and without modification pulled harder and faster than it was meant to.

Maybe this applies to amplifiers. Some lucky person buys something straight off the shelf that just sounds better than others of the same model.
 
Maybe this applies to amplifiers. Some lucky person buys something straight off the shelf that just sounds better than others of the same model.

A friend of mine who used to sell Adcom was describing this exact thing to me the other day. Apparently with one of their amps when it was launched (I can't remember the model number...I want to say GFA 5500 but might be totally wrong on that), you either got an amazing sounding unit, or a very average sounding one. And you never really knew which one until you listened to it. It was a problem that was corrected but he said it was certainly an issue to them selling them for a time.
 
My Experience

Most definitely, many so called "warm" amplifiers are the result of deliberate frequency management.
I've been buying NAD amps and receivers for years because I like their "warm" sound.

When I was building our dedicated home theater, I ran across the Panasonic Panasonic SA-XR57S digital AV receiver. I bought it because 1)it was 7.1, 2)is was curious about class D and 3)it was very cheap (~$220). I thought if I didn't care for it I could put it to another use. It has amazing micro dynamics, but sounded "harsh" when pushed. I swapped it out for my old NAD T-761 and there was a significant difference for the better. My son came over and remarked about the difference even before he knew I had done the swap.

Before this experience, I would have been more apt to agree with those who feel that amps working within spec shouldn't sound different. Now I know better.
 
I'm not clear what your point is with regard to my comment you quoted.

Subjective is open to a wide degree of interpretation such that recommendation based solely on listening impressions is IMO unreliable. I'd like to have some objective measurements to round out the picture.
 
seriously?

No, I don't think all Solid State amps sound the same.

I think 99% of all stereophiles would say the same.:yes:Why would anyone assume that different components didn't sound different? That's why there are a zillion different kinds, so they will inherently sound and be different. If they all sounded the same and nobody liked the sound, no companies could sell anything. I guess I'm trying like hell to prove a point. Does the expression "different strokes for different folks" mean anything to you, OP? Not to be rude...
 
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