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Do I need a Tube Pre-Amp

M

Moss1310

New Member
Hi Everyone- I could uses some expert advice. In my LP listening room, I am running my Thorens TD-160 Super through a vintage Sansui AU-999 Integrated Amp and old AR14 speakers. I have been wanting to experiment with Tube audio. If I get a tube pre-amp to put in my system, will add any audio value? Appreciate any thoughts or input.

Thanks

David
 
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Well I am no expert but I have had a AU 999 Sansui amp. It was one of the solid state units I really liked. I always thought it had a real tube like sound to it. I think a nice tube pre amp with it would work real well. With the right preamp I think it would make a great setup. You have to find what you like. I started with all solid state and now run mostly tubes.
 
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It may sound different, not necessarily better. Depends on the state of your present gear and the replacement preamp.
Otherwise, I'd go separates for the pre and power amp if to make a change.
 
No, you don't need a tube preamp, but it might be fun...

Whether or not it will sound better depends on what you get, and what you like.

Poorly-executed ones will just add mud, but some folks like to wallow in mud!

If I were to experiment with tubes in your system, I'd probably try a tube phono preamp. And the one I would try would be the Parks Audio Budgie.
 
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In my experience tube preamps especially vintage units match best with tube amps/particularly tube mono-amps,thats assumeing they have been brought up to spec and with quality capacitors installed.I run two such tube preamps and have owned and used many.I currently use a HHscott LK-21 tube pre and a Fisher 400C tube pre,i also use Dynaco Pas 2/3 Tube preamps as well as backups.

hunter
 
This is the tube section, and so therefore I must answer yes. Everyone needs a tube phono preamp. In fact, the correct number of tube amps a person should own can be expressed as (t+1) where t is the number of tube amps you have right now. On occasion (monoblocks) the equation can be modified to (t+2) at the buyers discretion and still hold true.
 
If you remove the jumpers and use the Main Inputs to bypass the integrated's preamp, it might well warm up the sound at an appreciable degree. Or you could get a really good tube phono preamp and come in through the AUX and still use the integrated's switching and tone controls, which might also warm things up. But neither would likely sound as good as going with separates, all tube.
 
I'm just guessing here, but I bet that Sui has a pre amp section so you might overdrive the amp by adding another pre amp section. What you can do is add a tube buffer to give it the tube sound without adding gain.
 
Opps, I see now. Just looked at a pic on line and yes, you can cut out the pre. Go ahead and let us know how it sounds.
 
djnagle said:
I'm just guessing here, but I bet that Sui has a pre amp section so you might overdrive the amp by adding another pre amp section. What you can do is add a tube buffer to give it the tube sound without adding gain.
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Good idea!:rolleyes:
 
daveshel said:
If you remove the jumpers and use the Main Inputs to bypass the integrated's preamp, it might well warm up the sound at an appreciable degree. Or you could get a really good tube phono preamp and come in through the AUX and still use the integrated's switching and tone controls, which might also warm things up. But neither would likely sound as good as going with separates, all tube.
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I'm on board with the separates as well, but it is a step upward, both in cost and in sound quality. At least if you can get a tube preamp now, you always have the option of upgrading to a separate power amp at a later date and reap further benefits.

In the present situation, changing over to a tubed preamp is a mixed bag in concept though. At worst it could sound different but not necessarily better. Yet if the tubed preamp is better in quality than the Sansui, and the power amp section is up to the task, there could be a definite improvement. A tubed phono stage (run through a spare Aux input) is similarly baffling, but I think overall that most separate phono stages are better than what is built into many integrated amps and even preamps.

And finally, keep in mind that many of today's tubed preamps to not have a phono stage. So, that is an added expense. It might be wise to start with a tubed phono stage, then a tube linestage later on...then work towards a separate power amp. And hang onto that Sansui for an alternate system! ;) In my case, I was looking hard at tubed phono stages but could not find any I cared for, and ended up with a Phonomena II+ that sounds phonomenal (sorry) through my tubed preamp.
CKDC said:
A tube buffer might be worth considering.
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I've gone that route and it just introduced more problems than it cured. It added a slight "tubeness" to the sound yet it also put a veil over the whole thing. (And now I'm stuck with one I have to sell... *sigh* ) I just see it as an additional circuit that mucks things up. On lesser preamps it is not noticed as much, but once you get a more resolving system, they stick out like a sore thumb IMHO.
 
trainbuftony said:
This is the tube section, and so therefore I must answer yes. Everyone needs a tube phono preamp. In fact, the correct number of tube amps a person should own can be expressed as (t+1) where t is the number of tube amps you have right now. On occasion (monoblocks) the equation can be modified to (t+2) at the buyers discretion and still hold true.
Click to expand...

This is just the sort of answer I wanted to make. Thanks for saving me the trouble of composing. It also gave me a nice chuckle.
Thanks
 
As far as tube buffers go, there are good ones and bad ones. I finally settled on a X10 clone buffer in my all SS rig. it really makes a nice difference.
I am looking to get a tube preamp in my tube system to see if I like it although I have zero complaints as to how it sounds now. Good synergy in that system.

BillWojo
 
I would not go to a tube amp unless curiosity is driving you crazy. IMHO, Sansui integrated amps are special beasts that are best left in their own ecology. Instead I would be sure that the Sansui has a really excellent attenuator. If it is just a generic sort of pot, go for TOTL Alps sealed unit.

That being said, I have a Sansui AU-alpha-707 Extra that has a bum rotary selector switching unit that even an ex-Sansui engineer cannot repair. Thus, the pre-amp side is unusable. So, I have a Melos GK 1+1 tube preamp feeding the power section. The sound is excellent, but if I could have the Sansui as one piece, I'd simply have two systems and keep the 707 together.
 
The decision to upgrade from a SS preamp to a tube preamp came with no regrets. Even in stock form, with original parts, my Dynaco PAS3X sounded better than my McIntosh MX-114. With an upgraded power supply, and new stock-design phono and line stages, the Dynaco leaves the McIntosh far behind, and sounds preferable to the brand-new SS preamps I've heard lately.
 
autoanalog said:
The decision to upgrade from a SS preamp to a tube preamp came with no regrets. Even in stock form, with original parts, my Dynaco PAS3X sounded better than my McIntosh MX-114. With an upgraded power supply, and new stock-design phono and line stages, the Dynaco leaves the McIntosh far behind, and sounds preferable to the brand-new SS preamps I've heard lately.
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I am not disputing your experience, but it is very different than mine. A '70's Pioneer, an '80's Pioneer and a big Sansui have all had much better preamp sections than a very clean Dynaco PAS-3x I had years ago.

The Melos GK1+1 I've been using off and on for 25 years or so is another story. It lends something special to any power section I put on it. A contemporary of the GK, a Conrad Johnson, had the same integrity on a system I had back in the days. The Dyna was a serviceable stop-gap, but even my AR amp — a dinosaur in the world of solid state — had a better preamp section.

As I say, I do not dispute your experience. You must have had an excellent matching of pre and power and other factors as well. Moreover, I've read great things about modded Dynas. If the OP looks at a stock Dyna, he may not be so lucky. Cheers ... Lorne
 
Nobody "needs" a tube preamp. Some folks don't need any preamp at all if using a single line source. Some folks want something to season the sound and decide that it's something "tube-ish" they want.
 
I would agree with Pio1980 as to "need" with a piece of additional gear in an audio chain. The term "want" to explore something different is a better question I have explored over the years. In some cases I found a complete tubed based audio chain to be a beautiful listening experience and then again my solid state Accuphase stack was equal to the sound reproduction in that tubed based system. They were different and results were amazing.

It depends on the final complete system to arrive at the desired result. You may have good to even great components in the audio chain but their input/output voltages might be a little too low or too high and affect the final result in that it doesn't give you the best possible sound. It is important to carefully match components I have found and just because you have well reviewed parts they may not be engineered to work in unison to deliver a specific and sought after sound.

For example my McIntosh system was considered excellent to be among the best available at the time I bought it back in the 1980's but my choice of speakers didn't really work in the room environment I had at the time. Had I combined that system with a slightly different speaker set up (I used Klipsch Horns and the next owner was using Mirage 990s) I later couple the Mirage 990s along with some Altecs VOTs and found a brilliant match up. Had I tried the 990s at the time, I might still have that Mac stack.

I have also found the type of music might be well reproduced using a specific set up but that same set up may not work as well for a different genre. Sometimes you need more than one set of speakers or have to add/delete an individual component in the audio chain to compensate for too much or to little of a specific signal to make it work to perfection or at least your best attempt in trying to reach it.

I don't think dedicated audiophiles will ever get to "their final" system since audio is ever changing and we all are curious to explore new areas, try the latest contraption or just get a bit bored looking at the same little displays and want to add the newest eye-candy to our ongoing projects. They are projects and I for one admit it is a constant R&D mentality in which I may one day hear something from a recording and then seek to replicate it in all of my collection. IT can't be done but that will not deter me nor others from attempting to find a way or endlessly exhaust possibilities in examining the various connections, components and toys to achieve it. After all that is part of why we got into into in the first place.

We all or at least many of us want to find that special "fits all categories" system. That special set up that no matter what is to be played through it will transform the listening environment and alter the experience to remove all outside distractions. The experience will allow us to be in that moment completely engulfed in the music and time suspended. Part of why we use music is to escape the otherwise day to day reality and listening/viewing and sometimes just closing our eyes allows us to get there even if it is just fleeting moments during the time spent.

i don't find many people who would pass on a chance to own a system described nor would anyone readily give it up if they owned something they considered to do what was described. The problem is always once you own it you listen and eventually are forced to notice subtle sounds that weren't apparent when you first decided THIS IS THE ONE!!! and the quest goes on. Someone else might think upon hearing your system that it truly is THE SYSTEM they have searched for and be totally satisfied for life or as the case soon turns out to be until they happen to hear the next thing and then the chase begins to call, the challenge and desire starts to pull us and we know no matter what we really are more drawn to explore a bit more than we are willing to settle for present tense.

I have been there with the seriously expensive systems, owned several over the years and now like to play with smaller more mainstream units just because I like the challenge of making a more readily available unit perform to the levels that used to be reserved to only the lofty brands and price tags limited to those who were the most devoted and unable to refrain from investing several years of mortgage payments or the price of an imported sports car just to be able to show off a fancy lit up logo to impress our friends and family. Some may take issue with that statement and claim one has to spend those amounts to achieve premium sound reproduction, well I can achieve that level and prove it many times over by researching, comparing, improving and matching the right parts to reach my goals.

That doesn't mean that high dollar system is not without merit, they work very well, last in some cases a long time and many folks are pleased with what they decided to invest in. It is up to the individual listener to determine their desired result, the effort they are willing to go to arrive at it and what they will want the final result to be if they ever allow themselves to admit it can be done.

Something you will never get a chance to hear is a side by side comparison of a good consumer priced properly assembled system verses a high dollar system in a high dollar showroom because the buyer would quickly realize the sound is in most cases close if not the same. I have done the A/B challenges and demonstrated this point in blind listening tests so I know it can be done. It sometimes boils down to ego and brand ego at that in the final result. Each must decide the value to ourselves and what is really "needed" verses "wanted" in the end.

I hope this is received as intended not to stir the pot in high dollar verses lower cost gear but in examining our thinking and desires in want verses need. Each change results in a result and the question becomes is it necessary or needed or is it just a desire to explore and experiment both are valid and a part of our continuing quest at sonic nirvana.

Cheers
Hermit
 
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