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Do you believe in the Law of Diminishing Returns in Audio?

JoeESP9 said:
Sorry. Read my entire post. A still is a still. What comes out is nothing but ethanol. That's simple chemistry.

FWIW: While in the service I was a Medical Equipment Repairman. If it was in a hospital as equipment I was responsible for fixing it in case of a breakdown. This ranged from dental equipment (air, water electrical and drain lines) to heart rate monitors (all tubes back then). At that time there was no sterile water in disposable carriers. Consequently all hospital pharmacies on AF Bases had at least two stills for making their own sterile/distilled water. I had to periodically clean them as there was a build up of mineral deposits that clogged them. The stills were powered by 220VAC. So I have knowledge of how stills work by fixing them in addition to the PLCB training.
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Cool. I respect that you have your opinion. Carry on.
 
Not opinion. Just the facts.

I'm still waiting to hear what makes them different other than added flavoring.
 
JoeESP9 said:
Not opinion. Just the facts.
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Got it. You have your facts lol

Im not going to press you to answer, but I will highlight the fact that you have not admitted to drinking vodka yourself to any meaningful degree.

That your opinion is based from being able to determine alcohol content, for certification?

Im not going to attempt to convince you otherwise. We come from different perspectives. Thats ok.
 
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I no longer drink distilled spirits. I just remember what I was taught in the USAF and as a PLCB clerk.
 
rothwellaudio said:
How does drinking vodka make you knowledgeable about how it's made? :dunno:
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Good point. Drinking vodka doesnt presume you know how its made. Fortunately, I do. The average vodka is 40% alcohol. The other 60% is water which retains characteristics based on the raw material it came from, or if it was added in. Its made from different stuff such as rye, potatoes and grapes. Additionally, there are different strains of yeasts used to initiate the production of the alcohol.

All this combined produces some very noticeable differences, primarily from the impurities that remain after the yeast does its job and the distilling process, which affects the taste (some are flavored, some retain a lingering flavor), mouth feel (this can be attributed to the molecular structure of the elements in the finished vodka), how it goes down, and even in the lasting effects of drinking the alcohol.

Have you ever had a fine liquor and one that was pure alcohol blended with water to bring down the alcohol content? For example, watered down Everclear vs a fine vodka. I'll tell you what I prefer. If you cant tell the difference, good for you. But good luck with the headache the next morning.

Vodka is something we put in our mouths. I will wager 100 dollars that if you put a glass of Titos vodka and another in front of me, I'll tell you which one is Tito's simply from the smell. Why is that important? Eating and drinking, the experience is half about the smell.

Thats my piece. If you believe otherwise. That's ok.
 
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JoeESP9 said:
What comes out is nothing but ethanol. That's simple chemistry.
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It's not that simple. Methanol starts to cook out at a few degrees cooler before the ethanol so the first distillate coming off is rich in methanol. Don't drink it. During the majority of the run, when the temp stays about 174F, you'll get fairly pure ethanol. Put not 100% pure.

Once the ethanol starts to come off, it's not pure ethanol. It's actually very difficult to get more than about 94% pure ethanol by distillation, there's going to be a few percent of water, fusel oils, etc. in the product. 95.57% is the tops you can get by distillation. 100% pure ethanol is anhydrous ethanol and doesn't come from a still. The ingredients used to make the fermented mash contribute to the flavor profile. That's why you can distill fermented grain mash and it'll taste different than if you distill wine, for instance. Or fermented rice, or fermented potatoes.

You can distill again and get rid of some of the flavors, but you can still never get past ~94% pure with a still - a little water and other stuff will still be in there.

Vodka producers don't whip up a batch of ethanol and toss in a packet of "vodka flavoring", the flavor travels along with the ethanol from the low alcohol fermented product be it grain or potatoes or whatever. And red wine distilled until it comes out clear and high proof still smells just like red wine but doesn't taste like it. You can keep distilling past 174F and get more stuff other than ethanol and alter the flavor profile further, but that starts picking up even more water and your alcohol content will go down.
 
JoeESP9 said:
Please be so kind as to tell me the difference.

All Vodka (actually all distilled spirits) starts as pure ethanol. If it's not a flavored Vodka the only thing added is water. You do know what comes out of any still is nothing but ethanol? Once it comes from the still it's how and how long it's aged in barrels that makes the different types. Vodka is not aged. The Ethanol that comes from a still is the same regardless of the mash used.

I got a job as a PLCB clerk when I got out of the service ( April 1970). I had to pass a PA civil service test to qualify. Upon hiring, PA LCB clerks are sent to school for a week to learn about distilled spirits. There was an liquor store in Philadelphia that was the teaching store. That's where I learned how various liquors are made. I worked as a PLCB clerk until that September when I started college.

Sorry for the of-topic meandering. More people should be aware of how whatever distilled spirit they drink is made.
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so the grains ( potatoes, corn rye, wheat, malted barley, depending on what is being made)) that make up the mash bill and the amount of each grain, the source and the quality of water used, the type of barrel used, the size of the barrel used, the aging warehouse and the location within the aging warehouse (top, bottom, inside, outside), the degree of char,(light to heavy) in the barrel, the CLIMATE variances each year during the aging process, the final proof desired by the distiller, the requirements some classifications have that others don't such as Tennessee whiskey vs bourbon, whether a bourbon is bottled in bond, ALL have some effect on the taste of the final product......some effects can be very subtle (dare I say it, like audio cables) while others can have a significant effect ( like audio cables).....some vodkas are wheat based, some are potato based, some are filtered numerous times to remove impurities, some are as you say are cookie-cutter produced and there is no taste difference......there are (to me) distinct taste differences between Absolut, Smirnoff, Grey Goose, and Ketel One when tasted straight up side by side, and I think most would be able to detect a difference.....it is true that the barrel and time have the most effect on the finished product, but there are many nuances within those two that also impart certain flavor profiles....not a one size fits all, like in audio!
 
Glad to see I am not alone in my opinion and that it is not purely my personal delusion.

You get to keep your facts :)

This has really become a problem in this modern world. People have foregone insight and experience. Someone reads a science journal or a book and think they know enough to run a multi-billionaire dollar corporation, or in this case, assess the quality of fine vodkas because theyre all the same. The devil is in the details. Some of the simplest things can be made excellently by fine craftsmen, and you cant get that from reading a book or a certification manual. You can't just go out and be the best in the world even after a Phd. Unless of course you are especially gifted, and I have seen some of those.

For what you did, I will believe you can look at a spec sheet and make a very good judgement if a vodka passes certification. Thats your job. Now giving your opinion for tasting vodka, that would be an over reach, if you never drink it. That would be like asking the DMV to give a review of a Ferrari.
 
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peguinpower said:
Youre telling me that since you passed some sort of certification to inspect distilled spirits, youve come to a conclusion that all vodka drinking experiences are the same.

I take you are not a drinking man? Thats cool. To say that theyre the same because they are made of pure ethanol is coming from lack of direct knowledge of drinking vodka to any meaningful degree.
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I do think that there are differences in vodka, but much more subtle differences than in other spirits. All this means is that if you're drinking something that isn't heavily mixed, or straight that it may be worth it to get better stuff, but if you get the very most expensive, it's not going to offer much more other than a higher price...
 
Aaron Hayman said:
I do think that there are differences in vodka, but much more subtle differences than in other spirits. All this means is that if you're drinking something that isn't heavily mixed, or straight that it may be worth it to get better stuff, but if you get the very most expensive, it's not going to offer much more other than a higher price...
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Agreed. I buy Tito's to make Martini's and Negroni's. Tito's is semi-premium and I do not consider 30 bucks for 1.75 liters expensive at all. It will last me a while. If I buy a lesser quality vodka, I dont enjoy it as much. Popov, is a no. As well as Toska. I'd rather be shot.

I will buy some lower cost Russians that have been reviewed well when I find them.
 
JoeESP9 said:
Sorry. Read my entire post. A still is a still. What comes out is nothing but ethanol. That's simple chemistry.

FWIW: While in the service I was a Medical Equipment Repairman. If it was in a hospital as equipment I was responsible for fixing it in case of a breakdown. This ranged from dental equipment (air, water electrical and drain lines) to heart rate monitors (all tubes back then). At that time there was no sterile water in disposable carriers. Consequently all hospital pharmacies on AF Bases had at least two stills for making their own sterile/distilled water. I had to periodically clean them as there was a build up of mineral deposits that clogged them. The stills were powered by 220VAC. So I have knowledge of how stills work by fixing them in addition to the PLCB training.

PLCB clerks work in the stores selling liquor. If you do you're expected to be reasonably knowledgeable about the products.
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Worked at a bottling/storage facility where most of the product was wine. But we did at times have other things like Vodka, and here's a really funny thing you most likely didn't know lol. They have one storage tank filled with high proof, that's 99% pure alcohol, dangerous stuff yo. Anywho, if any of the product doesn't meet the stated alcohol content % they top it off with high proof, oh ya even the wine lol.

Getting back to the volatility of the high proof, everything in the vicinity had to have explosion proof fittings, even the portable pumps.

Well every so often they climb up to the catwalk around the tops of the 60' tanks, open the tops and peer inside. With the high proof the use explosion proof flashlights. Well this one guy forgot his flashlight and pulls out his cigarette lighter.............

Luckily the tank was almost completely full otherwise the explosion would have leveled the nearby town. Instead it just blew the top off the tank and threw the guy off the catwalk, he survived.

Another time they forgot to open the top when draining a tank, ever see what a 40' wide 60' tall wine tank looks like after that lol. Well they caught it before the tank completely imploded but it did invert the domed top. Ever after there was always a little forest growing on top of the tank.

ok, back to our regularly scheduled bickering.
 
There are videos online where people have run cheap vodka through a Brita (or similar) filter and claim it tastes just like more expensive vodka afterwards. I don't remember which premium vodka I was reading about that distilled theirs 3 or 4 times.

But you can take a sip of that next to a sip of 190 proof Everclear and they won't taste the same.
 
Grenadeslio said:
Worked at a bottling/storage facility where most of the product was wine. But we did at times have other things like Vodka, and here's a really funny thing you most likely didn't know lol. They have one storage tank filled with high proof, that's 99% pure alcohol, dangerous stuff yo. Anywho, if any of the product doesn't meet the stated alcohol content % they top it off with high proof, oh ya even the wine lol.
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Personally, I would avoid wine or liquor that was blended like that. Its not what I pay for. I'd rather do drugs, lol.
 
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Jeffery said:
There are videos online where people have run cheap vodka through a Brita (or similar) filter and claim it tastes just like more expensive vodka afterwards. I don't remember which premium vodka I was reading about that distilled theirs 3 or 4 times.

But you can take a sip of that next to a sip of 190 proof Everclear and they won't taste the same.
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I believe purifying vodka will change it. Activated charcoal filtration is part of some processes. It would be cheaper to buy good vodka in the first place. Those Brita filters arent all that cheap.
 
JoeESP9 said:
Please be so kind as to tell me the difference.

All Vodka (actually all distilled spirits) starts as pure ethanol. If it's not a flavored Vodka the only thing added is water. You do know what comes out of any still is nothing but ethanol? Once it comes from the still it's how and how long it's aged in barrels that makes the different types. Vodka is not aged. The Ethanol that comes from a still is the same regardless of the mash used.

I got a job as a PLCB clerk when I got out of the service ( April 1970). I had to pass a PA civil service test to qualify. Upon hiring, PA LCB clerks are sent to school for a week to learn about distilled spirits. There was an liquor store in Philadelphia that was the teaching store. That's where I learned how various liquors are made. I worked as a PLCB clerk until that September when I started college.

Sorry for the of-topic meandering. More people should be aware of how whatever distilled spirit they drink is made.
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Unfortunately, that's not really fact. The hearts of a distillation are almost entirely ethanol, but the heads and tails are most definitely not. Heads contain a lot of methanol that can seriously screw you up for life. An improperly distilled liquor can kill you. Transitioning from your heads to hearts too early and hearts to tails too late can introduce all kinds of things that effect quality. Better liquors tend to be a bit more picky about what they call hearts.
 
Grenadeslio said:
then you better stop drinking because it's all blended that way eh lol.

This is the company I worked for, they've been around awhile.
https://www.thewinegroup.com/about-us/
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I am not familiar with those wines. I believe you.

edit: after cursory research, the technique you mentioned is prevalent in lower quality wines. decent wines can be blended, but the process does not normally include spiking or diluting the wine, which is defined as "fortified" wine. I am not an insider so I wont insist this as fact.

thanks for sharing your input.

edit2: the more I look into it, the practice of adding distilled alcohol to wine is looking like a shady practice. chaptalization, adding sugar to get to a specific alcohol content is bad enough. spiking wine with distilled alcohol, is like adding pork to a hamburger patty to make it bigger.
 
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