Does a Recap Destroy Value?

[Retrovert]

From the view of someone buying old magnavoxes to restore it seems that an original untouched unit brings more money than one that has been "restored" on "that" auction site. I would rather mod or restore one in original condition. It also seems that one even with a nice looking restoration doesn't bring the money they should. IMHO

You and me both.

I don't buy gear which has been "worked on" because it's generally a mess, often with stressed components, and carries a premium for that mess.

Particularly if the chassis has been spray-painted red.

As I previously wrote about a well-known butcher of amplifiers:

I would be wary of any of the purported techs floating about, as, given the photos I've seen of their work and the hacked-up equipment I've seen in person, these typically lack knowledge of the finer points of ringing, oscillation, and stability, let alone basic soldering techniques. My last response after seeing the damage done was, "Wait a minute, you actually paid for someone to butcher your amplifier like this? You sure this wasn't some uneducated psychotic who broke into your home and made these changes as an act of criminal hooliganism?"​

 

[Retrovert]

It surely should be updated, but for who and at what price?

Exactly correct!

The most basic underpinning for every human endeavor is a clear understanding of (1) the goal, (2) the constraints, and (3) the materials and resources at hand; such an understanding tends to be honored more in the breach.

As Wittgenstein observed, show me how you search and I will show you for what you search.

 

[Shawnnnn]

Since you bought it to use, I don't think you can trust all the bumblebee and ancient Sprague caps in there.

Like the others said, just keep the replaced parts for any future sales. Condition seems to be the most important thing for resale anyway.

Definitely follow Retroverts advice and ask the tech what he intends to do and what parts he will put in.

Before you hire a "tech" to use whatever components the tech decides are the least expensive, and thus the most profitable, or most appropriate, and use whatever procedures the tech has adopted as standard, I suggest reading on AK about upgrades and how techs may not have your best interests at heart or have the requisite knowledge to restore fancier pieces.

The research includes exactly what electrolytic capacitors are to be used to replace the dessicated cans in the power supply, as quality and lifespan varies, and what polypropylene-film capacitors to use in place of PIO capacitors, as many techs use inexpensive capacitors of inferior quality. (Polyester is a common capacitor as it has lower cost than polypropylene.) Poor component choice results in poor sound and poor lifespan, but greater enrichment of the tech.

I also suggest you research both (a) carefully disassembling and restuffing the aluminum cans to preserve the original look, or (b) under-chassis placement for the capacitors in the power supply whilst leaving the original cans in situ. A bad restuffing will be highly noticeable as will ripping out the originals and installing noticeably different replacements. By the time your unit comes back mutilated the situation is too late to fix.

I also suggest you have all of the resistor values measured, as carbon-composition resistors may substantial upwards drift in value (sometimes twice the original value printed on the resistor) and this may result in circuit malfunction. Metal film resistors will be far lower noise and are the superior choice. The purported "techs" often spout utter nonsense about the superiority of carbon composition (typically nonsense about nanoHenries of inductance, and I've elsewhere written about that if you care), and charge more for inferior components. That's the name of the game: upselling and substitution for profit.

Finally, inexpensive diodes may be installed to reduce the stress on an expensive rectifier (I've elsewhere provided a choice of suitable diodes with low Qrr for about $1.50 apiece), fuses may be added to protect the Secondary windings of the power transformer and the rectifier, and diodes may be added to protect the output transformer from unloaded operation which can occur. The transformers are unobtanium, except at great expense.

AK is chock full of the information you need, and it is well worth a few hours of research.

Abdicating such choices will result in your museum piece poorly performing, or even being damaged or destroyed.

I'm sure someone will take issue with the above, but research and take your own counsel.

 

[zackthedog]

You and me both.

I don't buy gear which has been "worked on" because it's generally a mess, often with stressed components, and carries a premium for that mess.

Particularly if the chassis has been spray-painted red.

As I previously wrote about a well-known butcher of amplifiers:

I would be wary of any of the purported techs floating about, as, given the photos I've seen of their work and the hacked-up equipment I've seen in person, these typically lack knowledge of the finer points of ringing, oscillation, and stability, let alone basic soldering techniques. My last response after seeing the damage done was, "Wait a minute, you actually paid for someone to butcher your amplifier like this? You sure this wasn't some uneducated psychotic who broke into your home and made these changes as an act of criminal hooliganism?"​

You raise an excellent point. "My tech brought this up to spec" and then in the eBay pic you see a few random orange drops, some cheap radial caps glued to the chassis and the selenium bias bridge still there toasting the output tubes. :-(

 

[Retrovert]

Definitely follow Retroverts advice and ask the tech what he intends to do and what parts he will put in.

My point was actually somewhat beyond the passive, i.e. to proactively inform the tech what actions to take and what parts to use and, most importantly, what not to do and what to preserve. Superior to provide specific instructions than to grant leeway for unspecified behaviors.

Since you bought it to use, I don't think you can trust all the bumblebee and ancient Sprague caps in there.

Ahhh, but we can trust the bumblebee capacitors to ruin the sound, leak, overheat, short, and eventually explode, sooner rather than later, thereby chernobyling a stage.

After fifty years the bumblebee capacitors are totally trustworthy for those outcomes. Bankable, in fact.

 

[Markoneswift]

It's tricky, isn't it? I think we all agree that the original parts all add to the sonic signature of a piece like this. 50 years ago, that sonic signature sounded different to what it does today because today that signature is passing through aged and degraded components. It's like classic cars, some folks love the look but like modern reliability and so they go for a motor / suspension / braking upgrade. On the other hand, some folks like everything totally bone stock but perhaps replace the old worn components with new aftermarket replacements or OEM parts if they can find them.

I'm restoring a pair of tube amps myself at the moment and I've just taken delivery of a whole bunch or replacement capacitors - none of which use the same materials as the old parts (I'm replacing paper-in-oil with film, for example). Will this 'hurt' the sound - I don't know. Do I worry too much if it does - not really, because I haven't become used to the sonic signature prior to my upgrade work so I have no point of reference.

 

[AlexHempel]

It's already been said, but I agree that it's highly specific to the type of buyer and the unit you're selling. Gear that's highly collectable (like Western Electric tier) or is popular mostly with DIYers (like the Magnavox amps) doesn't tend to benefit from restorations, and they can even detract. Each prospective owner has their own particular restoration philosophy and would prefer to guide the process themselves. On the other hand, for gear that's purchased by many audiophiles who just want plug-and-play (such as the more common Mac and Marantz stuff), a proper restore can add to the value, since they'd bring it to a tech anyways.

 

[Retrovert]

Gear that's highly collectable (like Western Electric tier) or is popular mostly with DIYers (like the Magnavox amps) doesn't tend to benefit from restorations, and they can even detract.

To be clear, the unit does not monetarily benefit, but it does functionally benefit, for if those degraded components are used the amplifier will sound horrendous and WILL, not may, be rapidly damaged or destroyed.

Using a museum piece with degraded components is 100% guaranteed to not work and blow up the unit. That's just a fact.

Using degraded PIO capacitors leads to awful sound and then plate voltage on the next stage's grid, red-plating and destroying the tube, followed by the output transformer when the tube arcs over and places DC (B+) on the output transformer Primary. We all have seen photos (sometimes even owned) amplifiers with chernobyled output tubes (melted) and output transformers (burnt and scorched).

Museum quality pieces must either:

(a) be maintained as-is and must NEVER be used at all, sitting on a shelf collecting dust, as Art @arts wrote in No. 18, "Only if the unit is an absolutely mint, all original piece that will be residing in a museum."​

— or —

(b) the existing components (capacitors and resistors) must be carefully cored out to insert modern components to retain the original appearance, permitting the unit to be returned to use.​

The laws of physics, chemistry, and electrical engineering bow to no museum curator, to no collector, and certainly to no audiophile.

 

[gadget73]

personally I'm not operating a museum, so I'll take proper function over originality any day. As mentioned multiple times though, the trick is good vs bad work, not so much original vs rebuilt. Many people (myself included) prefer original, un-touched stuff as a starting point just so there isn't any need to worry about someone else's bad work. Also as I tend to be cheap, I don't want to pay for someone else's nonsense either, especially if its something I'm not happy with and will end up doing something about myself.

 

[PakProtector]

personally I'm not operating a museum, so I'll take proper function over originality any day. As mentioned multiple times though, the trick is good vs bad work, not so much original vs rebuilt. Many people (myself included) prefer original, un-touched stuff as a starting point just so there isn't any need to worry about someone else's bad work. Also as I tend to be cheap, I don't want to pay for someone else's nonsense either, especially if its something I'm not happy with and will end up doing something about myself.

Yah, no kidding.

It is not like insanely valuable stuff falls into my lap often( basically 'cause I stopped hunting very actively ). And the insane collectors I have no reason to deal with anyway. I would enjoy poking them if I had a pair of More-Ants No.2's to sell... By now I quite enjoy just worrying about my own amplifier stable...nobody else is asked to fund it, and I don't sell its members.

Hoping to see SMAC meets re-established in person to gather input on improving it...
cheers,
Douglas

 

[Oerets]

I my experience on selling both orignal and recapped units over the years. The buyers in general only care about the performance.
Working or not....
Also do appreciate if a recapped unit, not enough to pay a whole lot extra. A capable of repairing buyer will use both conditions when negotiating price. Unmolested will need recapped, if recapped will say, would of used or wanting different parts. Or the old standby, prefer an unmolested unit.

For me if in need of repair, fix it able.
If planning on putting to use, recap before.

 

[Pio1980]

I rebuilt one of the most common vintage units with all-new expendables (kept chassis, iron, and oem circuit topology) and purchased an all new different topology amp based on the same opts for comparison. Love 'em both, I'm done with playing Washington's hatchet with collectables. Ymmv.

 

[RossW]

Unless we're talking a highly desirable/collectible unit in absolutely mint condition, a recapped and working unit will be worth more than a non-recapped and barely/not working unit. Of course there's a big grey area in the middle. A lot depends on the market you're selling to. Most of the time I'm selling stuff I've worked on to users (as opposed to collectors) and a common theme from talking to them is that they have (or had) other stuff in original condition and they're tired of it not working quite right.

 

[ConradH]

Personally, I'd take a nice picture of the old parts and then throw them out to prevent any possible reuse of the crap.

 

[onanysunday]

I'm an appliance repair tech as well as a recapper and upgrader of audio equipment with a focus on different series/ materials of capacitors as it relates to sound. Selling locally is for the birds.

Most people want to pay me the same (or less) for something all-original I purchased that wasn't even working properly after I've spent several hours and up to $100 (in some instances) for the highest-end parts I can procure for the project tailored to the specific sections of the equipment, with components stereo matched to within 1-2%. The fun is in trying to locate the best designed circuits which used the lowest-quality passive components which have the most before/ after upgrade potential.

The money seems to be on ePay if anyone is hoping to actually make money selling vintage HiFi equipment. I can make much more money in an hour fixing someone's dryer than selling an over performing, underdog receiver that has been upgraded. The money would not be in selling upgraded pieces locally, but on ePay, or offering refurb/ upgrade services locally at a reasonably high hourly rate with limits on how long specified repairs or upgrades should cost.

 

[Mr Boochie]

I always try to fix vintage amps back to safe working status. Attempt to keep the things from becoming tube eating maniacs. But, try to keep geometry and spacing as close to OEM as possible.


Before.



After.

 

[Fairlane]

Would you change out the original bumble bee caps in a 58 Les Paul? Just playing devils advocate here.

 

[zackthedog]

Would you change out the original bumble bee caps in a 58 Les Paul? Just playing devils advocate here.

A fair question, but guitarists are a class of their own. That special "tone" is everything to them--understandably enough. It's a different issue from audio amplifiers, where you really want the best wide-band performance the piece is capable of.

 

[Nyjblbob]

Regardless of What it's in, A 55 year old Bumble Bee Cap is still going to be out of spec.and possibly leaking.
I doubt any fresh cap would depreciate that 58 Les Paul!
Do you think Clapton would play it with out the proper upgrade?

 

[gadget73]

That cap doesn't sound like it did in 1958, so what is it getting you other than bragging rights? Like I said before, I don't run a museum, so if that were a thing I owned and wanted it to perform like new I'd change it. If it was too valuable to do that with, I'd sell it to someone who wants art and get something I can actually use. I have the same opinions about cars. If I ever end up with something that is too nice to just take a drive in on a nice day, its time for someone else to own that one because it ceases to be what it is.