Does amp power affect speakers sound quality?

[jrtrent]

Thanks guys, I have noticed that the bass is a bit muddier than when I use my Sansui SP-1000's which are rated much closer to the available power (Sansui's are 50 watts max). That being said I don't have any issues with clipping or anything even with more bass heavy music and overall the JBL's sound better than the Sansui's.

I will see if I can't find a decent 50-60 watt amp that is in my budget.

Some amplifiers control particular speakers better than other amplifiers, and it's not necessarily related to power output. When I sold stereo gear 20-25 years ago, it was not uncommon for customers to find that a 20 watt NAD receiver drove their speakers much better than their older, higher-powered receivers from Pioneer, Fisher, Kenwood, Toshiba, etc.; the NAD was simply a better design. I wouldn't make a change based on watts, but on whether or not a different amplifier actually sounds better with your speakers. Do you have local dealers who can demonstrate this? If not, it appears you're just a 1/2 hour drive from St. Louis, and I'm sure there are dealers there. Take your speakers and amp so you can compare yours with theirs. If you hear something you like, maybe you could arrange to borrow the floor sample overnight to hear it in your own home.

Other possibilities are that the JBL's simply are muddier-sounding in the bass than the Sansui's are; every product has its strengths and weaknesses. Or maybe it's a matter of placement. You haven't said where you have them, but, for example, the JBL's are ported out the back, and their placement instructions say to keep them at least 12 inches from the back wall (plus get them on stands so the tweeters are at ear level). I couldn't find a manual for the Sansuis, but they are ported out the front, so they might tolerate placement closer to the wall (or even be designed for it). In any event, they likely have quite different placement needs. Have you been able to experiment much with positioning to try to get better sound?

 

[Pandovski]

Maybe, maybe not, but operated within some defined envelope where the amps are able to reproduce the signal properly, they'd sound the same. Certainly the amp has to be capable of driving the desired load to the desired amplitude, and that's probably the main criteria for selection, along with reliability, cost and what you can stand to look at.

OK Conrad I have a bit maybe dumb question but I would appreciate an answer from a knowledgeable tech guy like yourself.

Why do manufacturers produce different amps with different topologies, components, loudness curves and features, if they eventually all sound practically the same to us?

I personally in DBT can't differentiate amps with isolated and fixed variables. I can recognize which is which by how they get loud by turning the volume knob, especially if the loudness is integrated in the volume gain. Otherwise I can't really tell which is which. My brain screams for more input.

 

[Bigerik]

Which just proves the DBT testing doesn't work, unless you are a very experienced critical listener. Only accurate way to judge the performance of an amp is slowly over a long period of time. Also, critical listening is a learned skill. Like anything else, it takes time and practice to get it right. Nelson Pass recently passed 10,000 hours of critical listening, and feels he is just now getting good at it.

 

[ra7c7er]

ra7c7er you have a typo on your blog http://checkeredpenguin.blogspot.com/2013/04/my-current-system.html It says JVC LX500 instead of JBL.

You mean someone actually reads that? ha thanks.

 

[ra7c7er]

Thanks guys I'm learning with every post.


I have played around with the speaker placement a bit. The Sansui's I like more on the floor against a wall and the JBL's quickly went on top of the Sansui's (it's not ear level but it's as good as I can do for now) and pulled away from the wall 10" I will move them a little more out and see how that sounds. I will say the JBL's sounded way way better when I got them off the floor.

I didn't even think of the Fisher not having a pre-amp out. Guess that throws a wrench in the thought process.

I do have a local shop (1.25 hours away) but they only allow in home tests with a 50% deposit and it must be returned the next day. Based on travel time and my budget I can't do that.

 

[ConradH]

Which just proves the DBT testing doesn't work, unless you are a very experienced critical listener. Only accurate way to judge the performance of an amp is slowly over a long period of time. Also, critical listening is a learned skill. Like anything else, it takes time and practice to get it right. Nelson Pass recently passed 10,000 hours of critical listening, and feels he is just now getting good at it.

IMO it doesn't work because it doesn't give the answers people want to hear. The DBT debate is old, well hashed and I doubt we'd reach any new world shaking conclusions by dragging through it yet again. The more I do this (and it's been maybe 40+ years) the more I realize what a minefield the brain is when it comes to audio memory and biases. Knowing about them doesn't help because everybody has at least some part of a horse in the race and can't be totally objective. Long term listening is good, but you'd really need the equipment set up by somebody else, inside a box, so you didn't know what was what, to reach a valid conclusion. Otherwise that pesky brain is incorporating all sorts of biases to skew the results. IMO, a fair test between components is impossible for most people to set up due to technical difficulty and insufficient knowledge of all the things that can skew the results. On a positive note, without this difficulty most of the hobby would disappear because there'd be nothing to argue about. :yes:

The question of why manufacturers design and build many different designs is interesting and probably varies with what kind of company they are. Pass has a philosophy about what's good and what's bad, sticks to his guns and stays true to that philosophy. Others may have less experience and design based on the limited amount of stuff they happen to have been exposed to, myths and legends included. For most of the design history of analog audio components we didn't have common resources available to all, like Cordell and Self's books on design. Even the Internet is recent when you consider the inertia that exists in many companies. Designers in the UK tend to go in different directions than US designers because the product evolution was different. Maybe the knowledge level of the target customers as well.

The fact that so many designs have been done over the years without any particular path being proven superior tells me that topology isn't as important as implementation.

 

[Bigerik]

The issue with the brain is not the biases. It's how the brain operates when studying a difference versus when it is at peace and relaxed and just listening. The two are completely different states, using different parts of the brain. The brain while studying a difference is vastly LESS powerful than when its at rest. It can easily be overwhelmed by the grossest difference. An entire new methodology needs to be devised, as the usual ABX comparison, especially with a switch in between, is incompatible with how the brain works. The only people who l believe can do are blind testing well are people with a LOT of experience in critical listening. This is not something that comes naturally, and it does require a lot of practice. Which is why when HiFi Choice does their blind tests, for example, they have Audio professionals do them.

That's all I have to say about that.

 

[zebra03]

Which just proves the DBT testing doesn't work, unless you are a very experienced critical listener. Only accurate way to judge the performance of an amp is slowly over a long period of time. Also, critical listening is a learned skill. Like anything else, it takes time and practice to get it right. Nelson Pass recently passed 10,000 hours of critical listening, and feels he is just now getting good at it.

DBT is the most accurate way to judge products . The auditory system of humans has a short attention span .

 

[zebra03]

As far as the OP , more power keeps you away from clipping and distortion . Generally

 

[89grand]

DBT is the most accurate way to judge products . The auditory system of humans has a short attention span .

Exactly. If you have to spend years in training to know the difference...then you don't know the difference generally speaking.

 

[elnaldo]

In my little experience, larger capacitors make a difference too. I've compared 2 similar low powered amps, 20WPC, but one had larger caps (5000uF instead of 2700), and the difference was very audible. And going more wattage, 50 and more wpc and 20000uF made a huge difference in sound, at room listening levels, never close to clipping.

But it could be the amps design and not the power.... In the other hand, I think larger amps are more expensive stuff and better design-build quality.

I never listened to an expensive hi-end low powered amp to compare.

 

[NeonDriver]

The issue with the brain is not the biases. It's how the brain operates when studying a difference versus when it is at peace and relaxed and just listening.

Very interesting insight, I'll be thinking critically about that... :scratch2: Then I'll stop thinking about it so much and it will all make sense.