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Does my phono pre have enough gain?

Decontrol2

New Member
I'm looking to be uprgrade my current turntable and cartridge to a clearaudio concept and dynavector 10x5 very soon. I have been reading around that the 38db of gain that my budgie phono preamp has maybe not be enough for the 2.5mv output of the 10x5? Just wondering if there is any truth to that.
Thanks!
 
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38dB is not far off. A few dB more would be nice but you'll get away with 38dB. At worst you will have to turn up the volume a bit more than you would expect, but it won't have to be flat out and you certainly won't suffer any dark, murky mud.
 
Our preamps output 40db. It will be fine. That cartridge is made for use with MM preamps and the usual gain is 40db. You might have to jack the volume up slightly from what you were previously used to (dial position wise).

Wayner
 
The rest of my system is a marantz 3800 pre and 510 power amp so I should have plenty of power there to crank it up a bit more. Would adding the budgie SUT into the mix bring it to a better level or be complete overkill?
Thanks so much for the replies.
 
Your 3800 has 60dB gain and it's output is around 3V. That's totally different than a budget 38dB gain phono pre-amp. No SUT with the marantz, you got more than enough gain.
I much prefer the budgie to the internal phono on the 3800 so I would like to try and make that route work if i can.
 
60db of gain will over-load your system. 60db of gain is for LOMC cartridges which put out voltages much smaller (like the decimal point moved over one place), like .25mv. Do not hook this cart up to an MC input, it will overload it. It needs the 40db gain of a MM input.
 
Tom: Does your stuff have so insensitive line-inputs? My own pre-amps, integrated amps and receivers all are in the range between ~ 120 and 200 mV...


Dc2: If you're lucky, it might be even less of a problem than one might expect, 'cause those 5 cm/s might refer to mono/lateral modulation only, so that the output for 45°/stereo modulation could be higher than the manufacturer spec by factor 2^0.5 = ca. 1.41. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any evidence on a quick search, whether that also applies in case of the DV10x5, but it for example does in case of the Denon DL110 & DL160...


Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
I wonder ... can you "stack" phono pre's in a chain? Dial in any amount of gain you want then.
 
I wonder ... can you "stack" phono pre's in a chain? Dial in any amount of gain you want then.

I would guess not (if they are of the active type) because they will RIAA curve each others frequency response into an audio mess. :)
 
skizo: Of course not - alone not due to to the repeated RIAA-(re-)equalistion, that would be applied. And then you have to keep in mind that every MM stage would only be designed for an MM-typical input level and and an output level in the line-level range. I.e., if we take the example above, the assumed 200 mV output voltage of the first Budgie on the input of the second Budie would mean that the second Budgie would already have to produce an output of almost 16 V...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Tom: Does your stuff have so insensitive line-inputs? My own pre-amps, integrated amps and receivers all are in the range between ~ 120 and 200 mV...


Dc2: If you're lucky, it might be even less of a problem than one might expect, 'cause those 5 cm/s might refer to mono/lateral modulation only, so that the output for 45°/stereo modulation could be higher than the manufacturer spec by factor 2^0.5 = ca. 1.41. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any evidence on a quick search, whether that also applies in case of the DV10x5, but it for example does in case of the Denon DL110 & DL160...


Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

That info is a little bit out of my range of
Knowledge but I got a pretty good idea of what you mean haha. It seems to be that most people think it will be fine so I'm pretty sure I'll go with thy dyna instead of 2m black it was up against. I'm thinking of saving for a decware phono stage which has a gain of 46db which would match well will the dyna when the time comes.
 
I much prefer the budgie to the internal phono on the 3800 so I would like to try and make that route work if i can.
Well the thing is you don't know if you prefer the budgie with the 10x5 yet because you don't have it yet. Anyway you have options and versatility in front of you. You can also us a Phono Head Amp in front of the Marantz stage or the budgie.

I wonder ... can you "stack" phono pre's in a chain? Dial in any amount of gain you want then.
You can with a phono Head Amp, it has adjustable loading and gain without any RIAA EQing. This is what I do with all my staging.
 
Or you could get one of these ...

califone-78-table.jpg


Cartridge output is almost a full volt, but the 6-8 gram tracking might be a bit rough on your "special" records. <G>
 
Would adding the budgie SUT into the mix bring it to a better level or be complete overkill?
No, that wouldn't work at all well. Contrary to what you might expect, you wouldn't get a lot more gain by using a Budgie SUT. The 10x5 is a high output mc and needs to be fed into a high(ish) impedance of about 1500 ohms or more. The Budgie SUT wouldn't provide the cartridge with a high enough impedance and there wouldn't be much more gain.
You'll be fine with the cartridge straight into the phonostage.
 
Related question:

Is the rated output of a phono cartridge most like?
  • the maximum
  • the average
  • a nominal value (that doesn't necessarily tell the whole story, like the nominal/rated impedance of a speaker)
 
It's very much like the Sumiko EVO special editition III which I had with the same output 2.5mv. It worked fine with my plain old MM preamp.
 
Related question:

Is the rated output of a phono cartridge most like?
  • the maximum
  • the average
  • a nominal value (that doesn't necessarily tell the whole story, like the nominal/rated impedance of a speaker)
It should be specified as the output voltage for a certain velocity of stylus movement. Unfortunately, there seems to be two commonly used velocities: 5cm/sec and 3.54cm/sec, and sometimes no velocity is stated at all. Using 5cm/sec will give a higher figure than using 3.54cm/sec, so it's possible that you could look at two different cartridges from two different manufacturers and think they have the same output when in fact they don't.
 
w99: It's more like a nominal value, but it may happen to represent the 0 dB reference value for certain measurement standards. For example, 5 cm/s peak velocity in lateral/mono modulation at 1 kHz would be JIS standard.

Ideally the output spec should cover, whether it's peak or effective, and then the test frequency as well as the reference velocity (and whether that's peak or effective and in lateral or 45° modulation) - or alternatively name the particular measurement standard/test record. So in the worst case that could cause a difference of factor (2^0.5)^3 or respectively (1/(2^0.5))^3 at the same test frequency.

For some more info you might want to check Yosh's page on record specifications (http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~yosh/recspecs.htm).


Tom: Well, actually you could still compare. However, you'd have to do a little conversion for that purpose. Formula for the velocity for sine-shaped signals would be: peak velocity = amplitude of modulation (0 to peak) x 2 x pi x frequency. So velocity is directly proportional to frequency.

But then one might additionally have to consider the RIAA curve, depending on whether that was applied or not. Considering that output level would usually rather appear to be intended to be measured directly from the cartridge outputs, not applied could be the more likely case - but I don't think that's really a problem in practice, as test records would seem unlikely to contain a non-1-kHz test tone for that purpose.

Anyway: So for example a 2 kHz sine instead of a 1 kHz sine would only require half the modulation for the same (peak) velocity. But to produce the same output level after RIAA (re-)equalisation we'd need an additional boost of +2.6 dB = ca. factor 1,35. So together the modulation would have to be ca. 0.5 x 1.35 = 0.675 times as high.


Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

P.S.: Seems like Tom has removed his reply regarding the test freqency, while I wrote my reply, so that part of my reply now has lost its reference...
 
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It's very much like the Sumiko EVO special editition III which I had with the same output 2.5mv. It worked fine with my plain old MM preamp.

As well, I run a Sumiko Blackbird through the Budgie with no issues and great results!
 
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