• Please note that Audiokarma will be offline briefly for updates early on Monday morning, September 28th.

Dual 1229q vs. Technics SL-1200 M3D vs. Sony PS-X555ES ???

xavier4peace

New Member
Dual 1229q vs. Technics SL-1200 M3D vs. Sony PS-X555ES ???

Platter Gurus,

Three turntables available ... what are your opinion(s) and ranking? All things being equal, cost, minty, and stock. Keeping upgrade possibility in the mix.

I'm torn between the Dual 1229q classic look vs Technics savvy industrial steel look vs Sony ES uniqueness 'cause it's different.

The Sony has a Technics P205C MK3 Cartridge
See it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_251kwl3UzI

Technics has a Shure M447 Cartridge

Dual has Shure Hi-Track Cartridge

Currently running through a Pioneer SX-1250 and a Kenwood KR-11000G. Dynaudio custom front speakers with a Velodyne 12" powered sub and Hales Audio Sub Zero. Future power tube acquisition tbd.

Is there a cure for this disease?
 
Register to hide this ad
That's a great cartridge on the Sony (assuming that it still has some life left in it). But I would not go for the Sony TT.

I would go for the Technics SL1200 MK3D provided it is in good shape.

I recommend the Technics because it performs well, it is rock solid, and it is still possible to easily locate parts for the SL1200. Also the Technics is well supported in the after-market for upgrade parts if that is what you wish for down the line.

Spare parts for the Sony are probably hard to obtain.

I have no opinion about the Dual, since the only Dual I have any experience of is the CS505-2.
 
By a very large margain the Technics, for all possible reasons.
Also don´t include the cartridge in the mix, it has really nothing to do with it.
If the cartridge isn´t so sought after so we buy the TT just to get hold of the cartridge, which can happen these days, then it´s a different matter.

(I can personally see several cartridges that I would buy the TT for a large sum of money, just to get the cartridge. AT180ML e.g.)
 
I know there are a lot of Dual fans here but I had that model in the 70s and was bothered by the turntable rumble and hum that the Shure M95ED cartridge picked up as the arm got closer to the center of the record. After that I've never been a fan of rim drive turntables. Direct Drive turntables are much quieter.

Even though I'm a Technics fan, I'd be very tempted to get the Sony since it's so unique. Of course it's hard to go wrong with a Technics for quality and reliability. Is the Sony automatic? I always prefer auto over manual.

Good luck with your decision and let us know what you decide.
 
The Dual and Technics both have strong followings, both are relatively simple and easy to DIY maintenance.

The 555 sony is a very different beast...

It was tge last gasp of Sony high tech in TT's, linear tracking with biotracer electronic servo damping.

If working correctly it should be superior to the other two. It is however an electronics fest, and if something goes wrong it takes a good electronics tech to fix it (if it can be fixed).

I would definitely take the 555 if it is running well (and if you don't want it, PM me details and I will make a bid for it).

Further the 205 is one of the great cartridges - depending on which version and stylus it has - if it is the MKIII or MKIV you have a cartridge that competes with some of the best out there.

Like I said - my vote goes to the 555 - and if you are not interested in it, PM me!

bye for now

David
 
By a very large margain the Technics, for all possible reasons.

Why? The SL-1200M3D is overpriced. If he wants a good quality Technics DD a more cost-effective option is the SL-1500/1600/1700 line.

If he wants technology the PS-X555ES is far more advanced.

And if we focus on sound quality the 1229Q is a heavyweight.

My pick would be the Dual 1229Q. Hum should dissapear with a better cable (and care with the ground tab of the cartridge). Rumble is just fine if it's well mantained.
 
Last edited:
Why? The SL-1200M3D is overpriced. If he wants a good quality Technics DD a more cost-effective option is the SL-1500/1600/1700 line.

If he wants technology the PS-X555ES is far more advanced.

And if we focus on sound quality the 1229Q is a heavyweight.

My pick would be the Dual 1229Q. Hum should dissapear with a better cable (and care with the ground tab of the cartridge). Rumble is just fine if it's well mantained.

I cannot really see that for the same price how the 1200 would be considered overpriced. What I´m saying really, is that for me this is the only one I would be interested in. What in fact will suit the OP, I have no idea.
 
I have the Sony PS-X800 very close to the 555. The 800 is the only piece I will not part with in my sig. Good luck
 
I own both a 1200 and a 1229Q. If I had to pick one it would be the Technics. I have upgraded mine over the years as funds have allowed and it has just gotten better and better. A true workhorse thats built like a tank.
 
I cannot really see that for the same price how the 1200 would be considered overpriced. What I´m saying really, is that for me this is the only one I would be interested in. What in fact will suit the OP, I have no idea.

If they really had the same price then that means the Dual and the Sony are overpriced -- SL1200MK2 and later models are still expensive.

But i doubt that would be the case on real life. I would expect the Dual to be cheaper than the Technics.
 
Further the 205 is one of the great cartridges - depending on which version and stylus it has - if it is the MKIII or MKIV you have a cartridge that competes with some of the best out there.

Note for the OP -- dlaloum is right, but this assumes that it has the ORIGINAL technics stylus in good shape. Be sure to double-check that !
 
If they really had the same price then that means the Dual and the Sony are overpriced -- SL1200MK2 and later models are still expensive.

But i doubt that would be the case on real life. I would expect the Dual to be cheaper than the Technics.

The OP said the same price, I have no idea, I would not pay anything for the others, as I would not be interested.
 
By quite a margin, the Sony is the best turntable. It’s Sony first, probably Technics second (but see my later warnings about this), and Dual (a much older design) third. Or to be more blunt, Sony first, daylight second…:D

Given similar quality cartridges (and the Sony will match a very much wider range than either the Technics or Dual), the Sony will always sound better. For a start, the tracking error is virtually nil with the Sony (due to linear tracking), and the active damping means far lower inter-modulation distortion (IMD) due to the much more damped low frequency resonance. The Sony Biotracer electronically-damped tonearm is hugely superior to the tonearms on the other two. The Sony also uses a very superior base material, the Sony SBMC (Sony Bulk Moulding Compound), which is extremely non-resonant (although the Technics is also pretty good there using a combination of conventional materials, to its credit).

So it’s Sony (particularly given the huge superiority of the cartridge fitted), followed some way behind by the Technics, followed by the Dual, although the Dual has a far better cartridge fitted than the Technics SL-1200. In terms of ‘upgradeability’ it’s the other way around – it’s harder to upgrade a turntable that’s closer to perfection, although I can't see why you’d pick upgradeability in preference to better sound (assuming similar prices)!

I should also point out that the Technics is fully manual – a pain in the neck for a home turntable (particularly if you haven’t used a turntable before), while the Sony and Dual are fully automatics. That means far less chance of scratching records, or wearing out styli due to dozing off while a record is playing.

I’d also be wary of the Technics, due to the fact it has a DJ cartridge fitted – plenty are used professionally, so while it may look nice, that doesn’t mean it hasn’t received a hammering from pro use. While spare parts are easily available to fix it if there are faults, that will cost extra. In its favour, the Technics will be much newer, but if it’s been professionally used, that may not be much of an advantage in reliability.

The only real advantage of the Dual 1229Q, which uses the rim-drive method of platter drive, is that it has three speeds, if you want to play older 78rpm records. It's just not in the race otherwise, IMO - it's a much older design, and the inferior specs and materials used show that. It will definitely sound the worst, given similar-quality cartridges.

In cartridges, it’s the Technics P205C Mk3 cartridge (the newest design and most expensive model), followed by the Shure Hi-Track (late-60’s or early 70’s hi-fi design – depending on which exact cartridge it is – elliptical or conical stylus, depending on what’s fitted), followed a long way behind by the Shure M44-7 (an early-60’s cartridge, widely used by DJ’s these days, rather than as the hi-fi cartridge it originally was).

The Technics P205C Mk3 cartridge was a great cartridge. With a tubular boron cantilever and exceptionally low tip mass, and a 0.2 x 0.7mil nude elliptical stylus, it was probably one of the best MM cartridges ever made, and tracked at 1-1.5g. There were few with such low tip mass (although a lot of manufacturers never published tip mass specs, so some may have been even better than the beryllium-cantilevered Yamaha MC’s currently leading the field in my list of lowest-known tip masses), although a few used better tip shapes. However, it should be mentioned that it will be hard finding an original stylus - even the Jico SAS stylus available for some models of Technics cartridges (not sure if it's available for that one) have solid boron cantilevers, and so probably heavier tip mass, evn if the tip shape is better.

The Shure Hi-Track cartridge could be either an M91 or M95 series (both were known as Hi-Track) – that’s why I can’t be specific on exactly when it was designed (M91 late-60’s V15 Era 2, M95 early-70’s Era 3). In the best forms (M95HE, followed by M95ED, then M91ED and M91E) they have either a nude hyperelliptical (M95HE) or nude elliptical (M95ED/M91ED) or bonded elliptical (M91E) stylus tracking at 0.75-1.5g. The M95ED, M91E and M91ED were second behind the relevant era V15 cartridge in the Shure line when they first came out (discounting the previous era V15’s, which were usually sold alongside the latest for a while), and they could also be fitted with conical styli. The M91ED was a later upgrade for the original M91E, due to a better nude-mounted stylus for slightly lower tip mass and improved tracking.

The Shure M44-7 is a heavier tracking (1.5-3g) cartridge with a conical (or as Shure refers to it, spherical!) stylus which is strong enough to resist the heavy handed treatment dished out by DJ’s, by using a very strong cantilever (not designed for low tip mass), and which puts out a huge voltage output, probably by using a larger, heavier magnet, which also doesn’t help tip mass. It’s been designed for heavier tracking and cantilever strength, and high output, rather than to provide the best hi-fi sound, sadly.

The M44-7 can be upgraded by using the lower tip mass elliptical hi-fi VN2E (V15 Type 1), N55E or N44E stylus, or the conical N44G stylus (or to be exact, seeing that they are no longer made, aftermarket equivalents, such as those from Jico) to be better sounding. However, it’s still an early-60’s design that’s been around since then (V15 Era 1), and was superseded by many later model better-sounding Shure cartridges, including the Hi-Track series.
 
Thanks everyone for your opinions. It looks like the next round is Technics 1200 vs Sony X555ES with the Dual falling out of the race.

My only concern with the Sony as dlaloum states, "if something goes wrong it takes a good electronics tech to fix it (if it can be fixed)".

So, the lead at this time is Technics with Sony close behind. Although there's something about the Sony, just haven't figure it out yet.
 
Pro's and cons:

Technics:
A reliable workhorse built like the proverbial "brick outhouse"
Totally Manual - so no automatics or electronics to go wrong
Only electronics are in the DD control, and parts as well as expert service assistance is readily available courtesy of its DJ popularity and the milion or so exemplars sold
Excellent speed control
Much under-rated arm, which can be further improved relatively easily with various well documented mods. (Fluid damping from KAB probably the biggest bang for the buck!)
Arm can easily be replaced with audiophile jewelery.... geek goodness from a huge range of manufacturers
Poorly isolated from the external environment, although it is well damped. So one of the first standard mods is to give it good isolating feet or put it on an isolation platform Isonoe feet or similar NOT SPIKES - spikes are not isolators
Arm is low mid mass, and best suited to cartridges in the mid compliance range.

Sony:
Build quality is golden age Sony - very well built! - But it is not built to take the sort of beating that the Technics can take. (Think Mercedes sedan vs Massey Ferguson tractor)
Fully automatic and integrated turntable means there is far less opportunity for modding/modification.
Linear tracking - lower distortion and better tracking ability
Servo controlled arm for both arm movement, VTF, as well as horizontal and vertical damping - the damping is similar in effect to fluid damping.
Low mass arm works best with high compliance cartridge designs - BUT due to the biotracer electronic damping it can work well with almost any cartridge.
Anti-resonant compound used to make the plinth - it looks like plastic, but is actually quite sophisticated. - not as well damped as the Technics
Well sprung/isolated.
When it was released it was intended to replace the PS-LX800 and become the top of the Sony range - which it did successfully - and was produced for almost 10 years I believe... (the 800 was rushed to market, the 555 was more carefully designed and planned, and as a result has a much better reputation for reliability)

In standard form the Sony should be the better TT.
In fully modded from the Technics may be able to better it.

The Sony will always be easier to use... (automatic!)
The Technics will always be easier to repair

The Technics is a child of the 70's, the Sony a child of the 80's - aesthetically that is apparent. - And I will not enter into which looks better as that is completely subjective and in the eyes of the beholder

The real answer is probably - get both, and after a year dispose of the one you find you use least!

Another thought:

If you like automation, the Technics SL1600mk2 is a close sibling of the 1200 - same arm and motor, but with the addition of automation - slightly less damped plinth, but nicely suspended... it can take many of the arm mods that the 1200 has without affecting the automation.
Parts are harder to find than the 1200 but still far more available than the Sony.


Bye for now

David
 
Very good answer dlaloum. Right on all counts.

If the Sony works well I would snap it up. The Technics and the Dual are much more readily found if you want to change horses later, but you won't get many chances at the Sony.
 
Why? The SL-1200M3D is overpriced.

Overpriced and overrated. When the 1200s were available new yes they were a great option vs. the usual suspects i.e Rega, Pro-ject, etc. But as part of the vintage market the 1200s are just another direct drive table. Way down on my list.

Sony vs Dual is a tougher question as they have very different presentations I would think with utmost resolution going to the Sony and superior bass/Prat going to the Dual. The Sony is the best of the three no doubt.

The only Technics SL XX00s that truly sound great IMO are the suspendeds.
 
Last edited:
I have a 1200 and a Dual 1229 and the Dual, which has been properly serviced, sounds, to me, more musical then the 1200.
 
I think I have changed my mind a little about these TTs. After looking into the Sony a bit, I think this might be the most fun to buy. Yes, definitely more fun.
 
By quite a margin, the Sony is the best turntable. It’s Sony first, probably Technics second (but see my later warnings about this), and Dual (a much older design) third. (...) Given similar quality cartridges (and the Sony will match a very much wider range than either the Technics or Dual), the Sony will always sound better. For a start, the tracking error is virtually nil with the Sony (due to linear tracking), (...)

The only real advantage of the Dual 1229Q, which uses the rim-drive method of platter drive, is that it has three speeds (...)

The problem here is that you're putting the Dual at the end of the list based only on some aspects -- for example you overstate the benefits of linear tracking over conventional tracking -- and at the same time, when comparing TTs you look over the fact that the dual has by far the most massive and most rigid platter of the three at 3.2Kg of weight. And the bigger bearing, as well. Plus due to the idler-wheel-drive design, it's the one with the most rotational inertia...

I have a 1200 and a Dual 1229 and the Dual, which has been properly serviced, sounds, to me, more musical then the 1200.

QED.
I started being interested in idler drive TTs after a very knowledgeable audiophile of mine (and official Technics dealer back in the 70s) sworn to me that the lowly Dual 1225 was a more musical sounding TT than a SL-1200MK2 after he did the comparison using the same gear and in the presence of the same friends.

:thmbsp:
 
Back
Top Bottom