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Dual vs. Rek-O-Kut?

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N8Nagel

Addicted Member
Damn... was working on picking up a ROK off my local Craigslist and deal fell through mostly because I was spending too much time in hospitals and couldn't follow through on the purchase.

Have incoming a Dual 1229Q supposedly in top shape and a 1229 project table that I hope to resurrect. I also have a Dual 1226 that I was figuring on selling after Brown Santa hooks me up.

I guess the question is, would a ROK B-12 compare favorably to any of these tables, as it's just such a neat looking piece I'm still tempted, or should I just pick the best Dual, keep it and be happy?

My real thought was it would look like the feline's posterior set up with my Pilot 654, but if I'm giving up a lot in sound quality...
 
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Good question. Though I don't know much on ROKs. There are many variations on them. What kind of arm does it have. Loads of variations here! With a good arm they likely might beat a Dual. Depends what you are looking for. I really like my Dual family. Had many turntables. Fifteen years ago, I cam back to Dual. My first 1229. Had a Shure V15 type three. Did not sound quite right. Let it go. Realized to late it was the cart! Needed a Shure M55. Three of my Dual's have them. Running two 1229s side by side one with a Shure M 55 and the other with a Shure V15 type 2. The M55 Shure Dual throws out more bass. My point is, you would have to listen to each. Which one sounds best. Even my low end Dual 1010s with a M55 sounds pleasing. It does have more rumble than my 1229s and 1219. Had my 601 going in the shop today. Though there isn't much love around here for these, it doesn't sound bad. Got it to study the difference between rim drive and belt drive Dual's. My two cents.

Eric
 
A B 12 is radically better than a Dual or any changer. It had a beefier motor, built to handle broadcasting use, and was higher performance under heavy use. And I am not dissing a good Dual, and tonearm upgrades on the ROK are easy, and plinths and other tweaks easy. Difference between middle and upper end (yes the ROK B 12 early on until 1968 was marketed to audiophile and broadcaster), in 1969, CCA purchased the company and B 12 and B 12H were marketed to broadcast use only to the end, though audiophiles who knew could buy them from a broadcast dealer.
 
The B12 has a ROK 120 arm on it. I responded to the ad maybe 3 weeks ago & the guy basically said 'you're too late it's going on eBay' now that things are less crazy I searched again and saw it was relisted a few days ago...
 
I have a Dual 1219 and a R-O-K B-12H and as enjoyable as the Dual can be in its own lively way the B-12H is in a different league altogether. Definitely more of a challenge to dig the potential out of it in terms of noise reduction, but the potential rewards are exponentially greater. Add a first-rate arm into the mix and you can really have something marvelous.
 
This is a B12 no 'H' am I correct in assuming that the difference between the two is just the motor? And do they show up for sale with any regularity?

Opinions on 120 tonearm? I really was looking for a more simple, less fiddly TT e.g. AR or Empire and this looks like it fits the bill and looks totally deco which is a bonus, but it appears to have no anti-skate? Is that a real issue?

I literally just closed a deal on a supposedly fully restored 1229Q not because that's what I really wanted but because it was a great deal and should be plug and play. It should show up tomorrow. ROK probably needs cart, idler, and CLA to work well. I could probably sell one of the Duals & make it even to get ROK... would you do it?
 
N8Nagel said:
This is a B12 no 'H' am I correct in assuming that the difference between the two is just the motor? And do they show up for sale with any regularity?

Opinions on 120 tonearm? I really was looking for a more simple, less fiddly TT e.g. AR or Empire and this looks like it fits the bill and looks totally deco which is a bonus, but it appears to have no anti-skate? Is that a real issue?

I literally just closed a deal on a supposedly fully restored 1229Q not because that's what I really wanted but because it was a great deal and should be plug and play. It should show up tomorrow. ROK probably needs cart, idler, and CLA to work well. I could probably sell one of the Duals & make it even to get ROK... would you do it?
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Well you'll enjoy the 1229Q anyway. Plenty of arms of different types that can be used, anything with a pivot to spindle distance around 210mm. I'm runnign a Nottingham Analogue Ace unipivot on mine.
 
N8Nagel said:
This is a B12 no 'H' am I correct in assuming that the difference between the two is just the motor? And do they show up for sale with any regularity?
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B12 has the round ROK motor shared with the Rondine Jr. models. B12GH has the "Borg Death Cube" motor. B12H was the TOTL, with the enormous Ashland hysteresis motor. All three are relatively common, as they were all sold for both home and professional use.
 
Sam Cogley said:
B12 has the round ROK motor shared with the Rondine Jr. models. B12GH has the "Borg Death Cube" motor. B12H was the TOTL, with the enormous Ashland hysteresis motor. All three are relatively common, as they were all sold for both home and professional use.
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Actually the GH had the Pabst, the basic B12 had either the round motor or the death cube.
 
I guess the question is, are they (B12 vs. B12H motors) interchangeable, or would the deck/mounts/whatever be different?

Still trying to decide if I want to pursue this or if I'm pushing the limits of domestic harmony if I get it without selling a few others first.
 
I don't believe the motors are completely interchangeable, while I've seen people say that the mounting plate is the same but I'm doubtful that all of the hardware is the same. And then there's the spindle, a replacement motor would definitely need the appropriate spindle. It's an interesting question though, and I have a Pabst motor from an N33H that I'd love to try in place of the Ashland if it seemed like it was possible. Last time I had it apart it didn't seem so...
 
well the table is still on c'list with a price drop, but more info - apparently the cart installed is a GE VR ii which if my google machine isn't broken is a mono only cart, meaning the tonearm is likely only wired for mono.

Pass, or keep an eye on it and see if it is still available in a few paychecks?
 
N8Nagel said:
well the table is still on c'list with a price drop, but more info - apparently the cart installed is a GE VR ii which if my google machine isn't broken is a mono only cart, meaning the tonearm is likely only wired for mono.

Pass, or keep an eye on it and see if it is still available in a few paychecks?
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I just took a look at the listing. I don't know exactly what the price was before the price drop but I probably would have paid the original price myself exept I don't need another ROK, (yes, even with the switch and idler wheel problems noted in the listing). That Model 120 arm appears to be in great shape (although it looks like the counterweight is from an S120 hmm). Assuming it is mono you could convert it (probably not worth the effort) or you could resell the arm and GE-VRii and make back over half the investment.
 
There was the 'Model 120' which was mono. And later there was the 'S-120' which was stereo. Other than that distinction they differ in the base design and in the counterweight. Check out the ROK info at VinylEngine.
 
I have swapped motors on a b12 several times before. Depending on the motor, the replacement could drop in. Going from a b12 cube to a b12h would require a different shift lever subassembly since the larger motors were connected with 4 bolts instead of 3. I run my b12 with an old teac 1800 rpm synchronous reel to reel motor fitted with a homemade adapter plate and some spacers. I have 3D printed capstans to fit the various motors I used but they are kind of noisy. I got lucky and found that a 60 Hz qrk capstan fits the teac perfectly - no rumble or flutter and at perfect speed.
 
sweetback said:
I have swapped motors on a b12 several times before. Depending on the motor, the replacement could drop in. Going from a b12 cube to a b12h would require a different shift lever subassembly since the larger motors were connected with 4 bolts instead of 3. I run my b12 with an old teac 1800 rpm synchronous reel to reel motor fitted with a homemade adapter plate and some spacers. I have 3D printed capstans to fit the various motors I used but they are kind of noisy. I got lucky and found that a 60 Hz qrk capstan fits the teac perfectly - no rumble or flutter and at perfect speed.
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Aren't you the creative rascal?
 
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