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Effect of record wear on sound?

Phuzzyday

Phuzzyday

Never, EVER stop learning
It seems we hear al lot about wear on records from cheap turntables, and worn styilii, incorrect vtf, that sort of thing.

My question is, how would you folks describe the difference in sound quality on a worn record? Does it appear in certain frequencies, or all of them? Is it background noise in the music? General distortion? Does it show up more in certain types of sound?

To be clear, I'm not referring to scratch damage / scuffs here, or dirt.

The reason I ask, is that I have been relearning the principles of vtf, and how even if a new stylus is within spec, it may need more, that type of thing. I'm listening to the 's' sounds, the cymbals, and if I hear that distinctive sound that turns a brass cymbal into the sound of hissing air, or that type of mistracking sound, I take that as meaning I need to increase the tracking force. At this point, I am actually .25g OVER the spec for my M97XE, and the improvement seems incredible.

I still get that distortion here and there, and I am starting to wonder, could I be hearing worn groves instead? Perhaps compensating for them? Maybe doing damage?

Could anyone more knowledgeable on this help? Knowledgeable perhaps about this cartridge?

Bonus question, how are the Lpgear replacement styli? I mean the ones that seem to be just stock replacements. Are the special ones like Jico worth it? The line contact ones? I tend to resist 'messing with the formula'..

Thanks all!
 
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It sounds Phuzzy. :D

Usually it shows up in the form of distortion or break-up that occurs on loud passages, particularly high frequencies. It may also sound like crackle or fizzy high frequency 'sparkle' that you know wasn't part of the original recording. It usually gets worse towards the inner groves.

Often times, dirty records can sound like this, but may miraculously recover after a thorough deep cleaning. A dirty stylus tip can cause this, as well. Then there is overhang and set-up...

Just out of curiosity, what is your VTF? Are you playing "brush-up," or "brush-down?"
 
Sounds like something is wrong, there. Those Shures usually track very well at 1.25g. (1.75g, brush down.) What turntable do you have? Did you install the cartridge? If so, what method did you use to set your overhang?
 
HK Rabco St-7. I installed it, it's linear tracking, so it's less complex to set up, but I was pretty exact anyhow. Diamond has to follow a straight line from spindle center to edge of record... I'm sure you understand.
 
Your question prompted me to come up with a new way to check overhang, and it was out. Maybe 1.5 - 2mm. That enough to cause trouble?
 
I'm back down to 1.5 on the diamond to see how it goes. Thanks for the reminder!

Edit: I'm wondering how much harm that was doing! I've gone brush up, 1.25, as you said. Early indications are... Wow, I think it sounds way more detailed now!

Listening to Neil Young, comes a time. On the third song of the b side, and only one instance of a bad 's'. This record is a bit rough though. You may have just helped me find nirvana! Not the band.

I guess I have just spent two weeks learning to double check the basics!! Vtf, AND overhang. Actually, I'm starting to think the overhang was the whole thing.

Never stop learning! Never assume you are sure of anything!

I'm retarded.
 
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A couple mm's could do that, for sure. Undoubtedly, you could inflict damage on the grooves by running it that way, but hey, if the record sounds good now, no harm no foul.

BTW... Have you rebalanced your tonearm at 0g since you moved the cartridge? Shifting it's position will require rebalancing.
 
Surprised by this thread. I've been fooling :-) with Audio since '66.
Yesss it's sad.
Regardless it was commonly accepted/known that Any LP was audibly diminished after it's 6 to 8th playback. I certainly noticed it.
And No.. not on crap gear either.
[Some experienced types suggest that spherical stylii do Far less damage wear than ellipticals.. But I digress ].
Doesn't take a massive amount of imagination to envision just what damage a Diamond tool bit could do to a microscopic groove cast into a fragile vinyl sheet.. Does it??
 
Yep, it changed the tracking force for sure. I'm checking it every time I touch anything. Am I dreaming, or did this make a huge difference in the sound?? Wow. No wonder I was not thrilled before. Am now!
 
After you changed tracking force, you have to adjust VTA. Higher tracking force increases VTA. Higher compliance cartridges are more sensitive in that regard.
 
Thanks for_p1, I haven't given that adjustment much thought. I just did some research, and learned of its importance. I found a way to check it, and it's within .5 degrees while playing a 180g record. I'm going to be looking at that more often. Unfortunately, the only way to set it on this TT is putting shims between the cart and headshell.

Anyway, multiplex, I can't thank you enough for steering me in the right direction! The sound is SO much better, and the static/crackle are far, far less for some reason!

I am pretty sure I have never heard my vinyl setup sound this good. Ever. Since the 80s! Well, could be untrue, but this change was massive, and dramatic! Thanks everyone! This is what these forms are really about, I think.
 
bare said:
Surprised by this thread. I've been fooling :-) with Audio since '66.
Yesss it's sad.
Regardless it was commonly accepted/known that Any LP was audibly diminished after it's 6 to 8th playback. I certainly noticed it.
And No.. not on crap gear either.
[Some experienced types suggest that spherical stylii do Far less damage wear than ellipticals.. But I digress ].
Doesn't take a massive amount of imagination to envision just what damage a Diamond tool bit could do to a microscopic groove cast into a fragile vinyl sheet.. Does it??
Click to expand...

My observation has been the opposite. I'm actually surprised at how tough vinyl is. I'd always heard the "wisetales" of how records will lose as much as 5% of their detail on the first play, and another 5% after the first 10 plays. Maybe that was the case in the days of acoustic players, shellacs, and steel needles, but in the days of LPs and stereo diamond styli that track at under 3 grams? Not So much. I have records with literally hundreds of plays that still sound good.

One example of an abused record I have is "Nightfly" by Donald Fagen. It has been a test/reference record for me for several years. I'm sure that certain passages have to have pretty close to 200 plays, by now. It has been played with all different stylus profiles, different tracking forces, worn styli... the whole nine yards. Sure, wear is becoming audible when listening critically through headphones, but if I just were to toss the record on and listen to it through my system, it would sound nearly as impressive as ever. I'll bet it's still at 90% even after all it's been though. I will admit to having killed a few records with worn elliptical styli, though.

What really killed stereo LPs quickly were mono players, changers with high tracking force and cheap, worn out diamond styli, or worse yet, ceramics with cheap sapphire styli. I also think that playing dirty records will wear them as fast as anything.

Probably under a electron scanning microscope, you could see damage to the grooves caused by the OP's mis-aligned stylus. The question is, can you hear it? That is all that matters.
 
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Phuzzyday said:
Thanks for_p1, I haven't given that adjustment much thought. I just did some research, and learned of its importance. I found a way to check it, and it's within .5 degrees while playing a 180g record. I'm going to be looking at that more often. Unfortunately, the only way to set it on this TT is putting shims between the cart and headshell.

Anyway, multiplex, I can't thank you enough for steering me in the right direction! The sound is SO much better, and the static/crackle are far, far less for some reason!

I am pretty sure I have never heard my vinyl setup sound this good. Ever. Since the 80s! Well, could be untrue, but this change was massive, and dramatic! Thanks everyone! This is what these forms are really about, I think.
Click to expand...

:thmbsp: That's great! Glad we could help.

Another thought... Sometimes the Shure QC ain't what it could be, and the cantilevers can be skewed a little to the left or right. If the cantilever is skewed a little bit, you can often further "fine tune" your setup by rotating the cartridge body just a little in the headshell to be sure that the cantilever is perfectly parallel to the groove.
 
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I am loving this sound now! I'm re- listening to all my records for the first time it seems! Inner groove distortion, I thought, was just part of the deal. How wrong I was! Of course, that overhang adjustment error would cause the most distortion in the inner groves! Getting a zero stat in a couple days from LP gear. Exciting!
 
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