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EL-34/KT-77/6550/KT-88 Recommendations

ScooterMcTav

ScooterMcTav

I know less than I think
Hello all,

I recently came into a Jolida JD302BRC which I have enjoyed immensely. It came with three quads of output tubes: sets of Tung-Sol 6550, Elecro-Harmonix EL-34, and JJ EL-34.

So far I have tried the Tung Sol and the JJ. The JJ were inoffensive but undistinguished, while the Tung Sol have more low end punch, and good all around sound. I just received the EH from the previous owner so haven't run them through yet.

For music, I like sharp and crisp top end, full rich bass, and smooth non forward midrange. Typical "rock v" sort of sound.

So question is, what tubes might deliver this sort of sound? The Jolida can handle tubes in both families, so there should be some good options.

Some might also suggest the Tung Sol would be one of the best tubes to deliver the sound I am looking for.

Also of note, the 12AX7 pre tubes are also Tung Sol, while the 12AT7 drive tubes are NOS GE tubes. Possibly a change in the 12AX7 tubes could also control the sound.

Thanks in advance for your experience and suggestions.
 
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People will say this and that about their favorite tubes and will usually try to get you to buy them from people they like to deal with. But, tube sound is very subjective and personal with so many variables that the tube and the amp is just a part of it. Speakers, room, and ancillary equipment being probably the bigger part of the sound equation. So, when someone describes how a tube sounds in his/her amp it may have little correlation to how that tube will sound in your amp. In the end, you will probably get what your budget allows, so keep an open mind and if possible try to get as many tubes as you can afford. If you want to halve your tube expense, buy a single ended pentode amp, or make one, as they almost all have 2 output tubes and 1 driver tube, sometimes a tube rectifier. This will allow you to try twice as many types on the same budget. cheers.
 
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Thanks Primo,

Hard to disagree with most of what you wrote, though I can always hope someone who also is using a similar Jolida comes along and shares their tube rolling experiences.

I did set up the E-H tubes last night and gave the amp a listen - much different than the JJ EL34s or the Tung Sol 6550s.

Whereas the Tung Sols were beefy on the bottom end, and have a generally dynamic presentation, the EH had a much more detailed and spacious top end, almost as if I removed a cloth hanging in front of the tweeters. However, at higher volumes, the midrange did become a bit harsher. The bottom end was substantially reduced, making me consider hooking up my sub to the Jolida's pre-outs. These strike me as great tubes if you're listening to acoustic, folk, or string-heavy classical, but sort of miss the mark for rock n roll.

Of course, I looked at the JJs, and the getter has come loose on one of them, so off to get at least a matching pair if I'd like to drop them back in. However, based on the fact they left little impression on me the first time, I'll probably instead look at getting a quad of something in the KT77 family, reportedly "better" for music.
 
It sounds like a good plan. It is too bad that some of the best el34 tubes are no longer made. My favorite is the Siemens el34.
 
The Gold Lions get great reveiews, but that comes with a pretty hefty price tag - over $300 for a quad here in Canuckistan after exchange, freight and taxes. Ouch. As I'm new to tubes, I find it strange that for tubes in the EL34/KT77/6CA7 family, there are a big bunch around $20/tube, a few between $20 and $30, and then we go to $50 and up. Maybe I'll keep a jar of "mad money" from selling off gear to save up for a set. Though at that price, I might as well go to the KT88s for the extra few $ per tube.

Anyways, I went to the local music store at lunch (only place where I can get tubes locally) and they brought out the tube box. The selection was rather disappointing, but they did have two matched pairs of the JJ EL-34s ($30 ea - only a few $ high once we factor in exchange and shipping), so I bought a pair giving me a full set of the JJs. I'll keep them as backups at worst, as I'm pretty sure the EHx will be coming out in the near future to be sold to someone who wants to put them in a Marshall head.

However, they did have a couple of JJ ECC803S in the box, at a better than mail ordered $20 CDN each. These also came home with me, as they reputedly do a very good job delivering a smooth sound for hi-fi purposes. I'm rather curious to see how these change the sound vs. the similar gain, but less bass-friendly Tung Sol 12AX7 set that is in there.

Also curious to hear if anyone has had experiences with the JJ or EHx 6CA7 tubes - both sound quite nice.

And as one final note, although the Jolida can bias up to 500mV for the 6550/KT88 variants (as per Michael Allen himself), it causes audible noise (and extra heat) to come from the power transformer. The EL-34 family places much less stress on it, and provides more than enough watts for my fairly small listening area.
 
JJ's are too harsh for home audiophile audio except for maybe a pre amp stage. Current quality control in Slovakia not good. More for guitar amps. Matched quads of the GL for $200 abound from reputable sellers USA (fleabay etc). Beware NOS unless you can 100% verify they match up and wont pop within 100 hours of use.
 
Thanks KKnight. Guess I'll need to start saving my quarters.

Though if I did sell a few of my tube sets, and my extra unused Rotel power amp, I could certainly get close to affording the GLs. Hmmm.
 
JJ ecc803 is an excellent hifi tube. Follows spec and has spiraled filament for hum-free operation.
 
Looks like the JJ ECC803S was what the doctor ordered.

Bottom end has opened up substantially, and any traces of harshness are gone, without losing top end clarity.

Also seem to be a nice pairing with the JJ EL-34. I seem to be getting more of those nice harmonics all over, with zero of the harmonics that cause my tinnitus to flare up. Beautiful.

But yes, I'd still like some Gold Lions. Just need to save my shekels.
 
Haven't heard the JJ EL34, so cannot comment on it. But have heard the JJ KT77 and it is pretty good. One of the best bangs for the buck out there.

Not surprised you heard a difference in changing out the driver tube. I have two amps where rolling 6SN7s or 6DJ8s have made noticeable differences.
 
I've heard good things about the JJ KT77s as well, and ordered a quad last week for $85 out the door. Seems hard to believe for that price, but YOLO I suppose. I currently use the New Sensor Winged C EL34s and think they're fantastic, but they don't make them anymore and I want to find something I like in current production. I've heard good things about Psvane EL34s as well.
 
ScooterMcTav said:
The Gold Lions get great reveiews, but that comes with a pretty hefty price tag - over $300 for a quad here in Canuckistan after exchange, freight and taxes. Ouch. As I'm new to tubes, I find it strange that for tubes in the EL34/KT77/6CA7 family, there are a big bunch around $20/tube, a few between $20 and $30, and then we go to $50 and up. Maybe I'll keep a jar of "mad money" from selling off gear to save up for a set. Though at that price, I might as well go to the KT88s for the extra few $ per tube.

Anyways, I went to the local music store at lunch (only place where I can get tubes locally) and they brought out the tube box. The selection was rather disappointing, but they did have two matched pairs of the JJ EL-34s ($30 ea - only a few $ high once we factor in exchange and shipping), so I bought a pair giving me a full set of the JJs. I'll keep them as backups at worst, as I'm pretty sure the EHx will be coming out in the near future to be sold to someone who wants to put them in a Marshall head.

However, they did have a couple of JJ ECC803S in the box, at a better than mail ordered $20 CDN each. These also came home with me, as they reputedly do a very good job delivering a smooth sound for hi-fi purposes. I'm rather curious to see how these change the sound vs. the similar gain, but less bass-friendly Tung Sol 12AX7 set that is in there.

Also curious to hear if anyone has had experiences with the JJ or EHx 6CA7 tubes - both sound quite nice.

And as one final note, although the Jolida can bias up to 500mV for the 6550/KT88 variants (as per Michael Allen himself), it causes audible noise (and extra heat) to come from the power transformer. The EL-34 family places much less stress on it, and provides more than enough watts for my fairly small listening area.
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I run a quad of EH-6CA7s in a Yaqin MC-30L with RCA Black Plates in the preamp section. The 6CA7s are something that give a more 6L6 type midrange and open top end with the head room above the 6550 Tung-Sols.

The point made previously about subjectivity is spot on and it is for your ears to make the final decision. The EH take a good amount of time to "break in" so don't be put off during the first 80 or so hours. The closest I have found to RCA Black Plates is the Sylvanias followed by the Tung-Sols, and in descending order the rest of the Eastern European manufactured lables.

Others love Genelec Gold Lions, but the cost is really not worth the expenditure. Is there a difference, yes is it justified well, if you spent twice as much or more would you admit to not hearing a VAST difference? Seriously they all exhibit a slight difference sonically and one brand may serve to produce the most pleasing sound to your ears, but in reality, if you can't determine a difference in the signal path sonically until you have spent a grand or two on every example out there to break in, listen to and then try to remember exactly the slight differences why bother?

The bass response is very tight solid with the tubes I mentioned again I found a nice set of of the RCAs B Plates performed best. You can get good results with the others as well, but there is a descending performance level from the RCAs. It is noticeable and depending on your budget and availability you can have whatever you want.

Some folks will insist that 1 particular brand is above all others and swear an oath by it when in reality you may or may not be even able to hear a difference or even dislike their personal choice of tubes/valves.

I would suggest that if you go with a nice matched set of EH 6CA7s you would find them to meet your general needs and they would provide quite pleasing response ALONG with a solid set of preamp tubes that will again be subject to your ears. The vintage Black Plates are not cheap, the vintage Sylvanias are about 1/2 of the price of the RCAs, while the Tung-Sols will be under the 1/2 way mark if you shop around. Your ears and budget will guide you.

After you get through the tube sort through next come the mods to your amp and that will be fun to watch.

Cheers
Hermit
 
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Thanks Hermit,

Well right now I have both the Tung Sol 12AX7 and the JJ ECC803S to use in the pre tube holes and some NOS GE 12AT7 variant in the driver tube holes. I've also heard good things about NOS Mullard 12AT7 if I decided to change these.

However, your comments on the EH 6CA7 are interesting - it sounds as if you are suggesting that it is a "better" tube than the Tung Sol 6550. If so, it sounds like it may be a good low-cost option to the Gold Lion KT77s

Thanks for the feedback.
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Hmmm .... EH 6CA7 vs JJ KT77. Tough choice. About the same price. I would probably go with the KT77 but have never directly compared them. The Tung-Sol 6550 is going to sound different. No way of knowing which one you would like best.

However you did write in your OP, "For music, I like sharp and crisp top end, full rich bass, and smooth non forward midrange. Typical "rock v" sort of sound." To me, that sounds more like a 6550/KT88 type tube than an EL34/6CA7.
 
Well, had an interesting experience yesterday.

I put the Tung Sol 6550 tubes back in last night, just to see the difference in bass response. The bass response certainly was there, as was the "live in person" immediacy of the midrange. Excellent dynamics with a wide and airy sound.

And it also flared up my tinnitus - obviously there is something harmonically or distortionally which causes some sort of irritation to my hearing with this particular set of output tubes.

I contrast this with the JJ EL34 I had run the day before, where the amp was producing a very listenable sound, albeit a bass-shy one. I would also say the sound was much more two dimensional and "choked" with the EL34 compared to the spaciousness of the sound with the 6550.

So now I have some concern - any output device (including SS amps, such as a Musical Fidelity a3.2 I used to have) that has a blooming or forward midrange seems to cause my tinnitus to flare up, especially on recordings with heavy dynamic compression (some CDs and digital tracks are simply unlistenable). I seem to be a bit caught now - in that a "softer" sounding EL34 is easier to listen to, but is missing some dynamics, while a dynamic tube like the TS 6550 has dynamics in spades, yet becomes fatiguing very quickly.

What is a feller to do? At anywhere between $100-$300 for a set of output tubes, this could become a very expensive experiment.
 
Thanks 6DZ7,

Actually been there, done that. The frequencies that trigger the tinnitus fall between 750Hz and 4 Khz, with the "hot" ones being between 1-2Khz. Oddly enough, I have no atypical hearing loss for my age.

When really fired up, my tinnitus comes in at an almost perfect 8khz, and is at about a 40db gain. When at "low idle" it is still there, somewhere between a 10 and 20db gain.

Going to a quality tube amp, one of the things I had hoped was to get away from frequencies and harmonics that could fire up my tinnitus, and to take advantage of an all tube signal path. So I have stayed away from EQs, and even moved my stereo to a more acoustically favorable room, with irregular soft surfaces, and very few reflective surfaces, hoping it would help. This being said, I had already used the EQ once to try and tone down these frequencies when it the amp was set up in a separate room (with the 6550s as the power tubes). Although it made the system easier to listen to, even my non-music-addicted wife remarked "What happened. He no longer sounds like he's in the room". Ugh, when even she notices it, it's noticeable.

Where my conundrum comes in is that once you've heard a gloriously clear midrange, and appreciate the immediacy and vibrance that it adds to sound, you cannot unhear it. Once you've heard a singer present in your room , winching back their vocal frequencies makes it sound as if they are singing from behind a sheet.

This was my exact experience with the JJ EL-34s - the sound was smooth, yet some of my typical test tracks sounded less dynamic. For example, Mark Knopfler's voice on "Sultans of Swing" (Money for Nothing - Greatest Hits CD) lost some of it's dimensionality; best way to describe it is the sound flattened or receeded into the sound. When the Tung Sol 6550s went back in, I realized just how much was missing with the JJs - the voice moved up in the mix, and it regained its immediacy and presence in the room. With an added helping of tinnitus.

The first time I fired up the Jolida with a disc I knew very well, the first words out of my mouth were "Holy s***". I head never heard a modern tube amp before, and the texture and lifelikeness of the sound simply blew away what I had heard through other quality SS pieces I had owned (Musical Fidelity, McIntosh, and Luxman). And although I still use SS equipment in various places around the home and office, I am still amazed at how so much more vibrant, spacious, and alive music is through a tube rig.

So really what I need is a tube that has a midrange presence that falls between the JJ EL-34 (dull) and Tung Sol 6550 (awesome, plus tinnitus!), yet has the fatter bottom end of the 6550. In corresponding with another enthusiast who was selling some GL KT-77, it sounds as if they are not the answer either - they themselves were wanting to go NOS Mullard to warm up the bottom end of their amp. Possibly, I am looking for the impossible, and that my tinnitus is simply incompatable with a detailed and dynamic midrange. But I want to keep looking.

And in the back of my mind, I do hope that once I am done refinishing my Soliloquy 6.2 that they might play nicer with the tubes than my Monitor Audio Silver 8i are. I tried my Wharfedale Diamond 10.6 with the Jolida, and they were simply not of the same caliber as the amp.
 
I have tinnitus, but it effects the higher frequency range. I tend to like speakers and tubes that roll off some in the higher frequencies. Im wondering if an active crossover or parametric equalizer would help.
 
I asked same question recently
I heard genalex reissue KT77 the best of new this group
Second EH6CA7
Third Tungsol reissue EL34

I opted for the EHs (about half the price)
As far as KT88
Ive heard the Gold Lion Reissues are the best of that group.
I'd buy from a reputable dealer like Jim McShane if i could
No affiliation
Good luck!
 
Thanks for the advice 6DZ7, and I think after this thread that I am exactly where you stated. There may not be a "magic salve" tube for what ails me, and tube rolling for the sake of spending money (although consistent with general audio enthusiast behaviour) is a low payback proposition, vs buying more records. That being said, from listening to the JJ, EHx, and Tung Sol, it is pretty clear that the tubes all do color the sound differently, the question is, which one colors it "right" for your gear, ears, and room.

In looking at other possible issues, the weak area could be the speakers - the Monitor Audio Silver 8i sounded great with both an old McIntosh and a 70's Luxman, despite having a reputation for being somewhat forward or strident. Possibly this particular combo of speakers and amp just simply doesn't work. Possibly going to a 2-way vs. 3-way system might tame back a bit of the 1-2kHz frequencies that the MA have been known to push forward through its mid.

Lavane, that thought has occured to me as well, and I have toyed with the idea of running the HF out of the tube amp, and using its variable pre outs to send the signal to a second integrated to bi-amp the LF sections. Or, I could run the signal through an additional integrated I have as a pre, run the LF off it, and send the pre out to the tube amp for the HF. Either method could possibly address bass leaness (using tone controls), and allow better sound balance.

But the more I think about the speakers, the more I wonder if they may be the problem.

When I get home tonight, I do have a nice set of Celestion Ditton 15 that might provide an interesting contrast to the Monitor Audio. I do also have a set of Mission M72 in my office I could take home for a workout. Either one should give me some indication to if a speaker change might be the right move, vs. fiddling with tubes.

Appreciate your feedback.
 
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