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Empire 208 - suggested tweaks/questions

Z

zbarbera

New Member
Posted this on the Empire History thread but didn't seem to get any traction. So, starting a new thread to see if get some answers.

Finally picked up and Empire 208. Seems like everything is in order. Needs some work, I plan on cleaning it up and making the tweaks listed in the Empire History thread. Damping the platter (O-rings) and top plate (mortite). Taking it apart and cleaning everything. Replace the belt (with the Esoteric recommended here). Etc. I read all 100 pages and created a doc that combines and condenses all of the suggestions for cleaning, improving and modifying that I'll use as my guide for the next couple of months prepping the TT for use. But having read through all 100 pages I have some questions.

1) Esoteric claims their grommets are better than the original Lord grommets. They also cost 2x as much. Has anyone compared? Are they worth the price?

2) The next question has been answered but often I see someone else say the exact opposite. I am going to replace the tonearm. Right now the table is silver but it has a gold Empire 98 (showing some pretty bad pitting). I'm leaning toward either a Linn or a Jelco 750D as I've seen both described as drop in replacements. But, I've seen other posts saying that some minor modifications needed to be made. Which is it? I have an aversion to drilling vintage gear (comes from years of owning a 1963 Austin Cooper 1071S, drilling just makes the back of my eyeballs itch, if you know what I mean), so I would prefer to modify as little as possible.

3) Has anyone ever had the logo and 208 graphic reproduced? While I had it apart I was considering taking it to custom vinyl label place to see if they could make a template or die cut sticker. My logo is okay at the moment but the top does need some polishing and I fear damaging it so want to be prepared.

In the end it will probably replace the Micro Seiki DD40 that is in my office system with a Mcintosh MX100, MC240 and Klipsh Heresy IIs. The Micro Seiki (which I absolutely love) will go to my listening room system which is now an AR XA, Fisher 400, Marantz 8B and an early pair of Quad ESL 57s. And then the AR XA will go with the other listening room system: Marantz 2235, Marantz 250 and Vienna Acoustics Bachs (which need to be replaced with either some JBL L100s, Pioneer HPM 100Bs or Kef 105/2s to really take advantage of that 250 watts).
 
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I think the reason your post didn't get much traction is because I don't think many..if any...of us have answers to the questions you're asking. I'll assume you did a general search on here and came up empty also.

Question 1: The Esoteric website makes a good case for their grommets, and I haven't read anything bad about them so... At $8 a pop, that isn't too bad, IMO. Especially in relation to the price of new belts, tonearms, etc. Go for it and be the first to report back! :bigok:

Question 2: No idea...sorry. I think with any alternate tonearm, even if the length/geometry is the same (as various Linn's and Jelco's are said to be), you will probably have to drill new tonearm base mounting screw holes and/or possibly widen the tonearm base shaft hole as I doubt any tonearm would match the hole spacing of the 98 base mount. Nor would the shaft of another tonearm be the same size as a 98's preventing you from using the 98 mount as is. It was probably serendipity that the arms Esoteric Sound sells for the 598 are true drop-ins. Even they say the S-320MKII arm used on a 208/298/398 might need some modification to the plinth. (I'd imagine they say that because of what arm may be on any given 208. Either Empire's own or another make.)

Question 3: Again, no idea, but with today's tech it shouldn't be hard to do I'd imagine.

I wish I could be of more help.
 
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zbarbera, welcome to the forum. If you’re planning on using a longer arm than what’s on your 298 then you will need to cut (grind, file) the deck plate. If you locate an arm the same length, you may find that it just bolts right on, as they say on the esoteric sound page here:

https://www.esotericsound.com/ArmsAndHeadshells.htm

If you go with an even longer arm, consider screwing down a new arm mounting plate, as seen on this modified, 208 based table (pic attached).
Those Atma-Sphere tables were based on the 208 but about as modified as they could be, within reason. The deck plate was actually not original Empire, but machined from a chunk of aluminum, leaving it much thicker to help reduce resonance..

BTW - I still have some 1275S parts around here; used to have a couple ‘65 Minis I played with in the ‘80s. Some of the most “fun” cars I’ve ever had. Minis are gone but still have a ‘73 Europa Special “in a basket”, waiting for attention.
 
MisterDK said:
View attachment 2039625

zbarbera, welcome to the forum. If you’re planning on using a longer arm than what’s on your 298 then you will need to cut (grind, file) the deck plate. If you locate an arm the same length, you may find that it just bolts right on, as they say on the esoteric sound page here:

https://www.esotericsound.com/ArmsAndHeadshells.htm

If you go with an even longer arm, consider screwing down a new arm mounting plate, as seen on this modified, 208 based table (pic attached).
Those Atma-Sphere tables were based on the 208 but about as modified as they could be, within reason. The deck plate was actually not original Empire, but machined from a chunk of aluminum, leaving it much thicker to help reduce resonance..

BTW - I still have some 1275S parts around here; used to have a couple ‘65 Minis I played with in the ‘80s. Some of the most “fun” cars I’ve ever had. Minis are gone but still have a ‘73 Europa Special “in a basket”, waiting for attention.
Click to expand...

No, I would keep it to 9". I definitely don't want to add a plate which would distract from those nice lines. Although, I did consider making an offer on that Atma that's on Fleabay. Only selling regret I have is the MP-1 and MA-1. What I wouldn't give to get those back.

Nice! My 1071S is the third one off the line on May 7th 1963. It has some cool history. Proper British RHD here in the US. Downton tuned engine with straight cut gears. Purrs very nicely. Haha. You and my dad would have gotten along. I inherited the Mini and sold the orange 73 Europa. Perfect survivor. The guy who bought it was going to do a total resto but even the garage owner he worked for said he was nuts. Tune it up, change the oil and either enjoy it or flip it. He finally saw the light, thankfully. I hated driving that thing. I'm not a small guy and have a size 13 foot. I had to drive barefoot or hit both pedals at the same time.
 
empirelvr said:
I think the reason your post didn't get much traction is because I don't think many..if any...of us have answers to the questions you're asking. I'll assume you did a general search on here and came up empty also.

Question 1: The Esoteric website makes a good case for their grommets, and I haven't read anything bad about them so... At $8 a pop, that isn't too bad, IMO. Especially in relation to the price of new belts, tonearms, etc. Go for it and be the first to report back! :bigok:

Question 2: No idea...sorry. I think with any alternate tonearm, even if the length/geometry is the same (as various Linn's and Jelco's are said to be), you will probably have to drill new tonearm base mounting screw holes and/or possibly widen the tonearm base shaft hole as I doubt any tonearm would match the hole spacing of the 98 base mount. Nor would the shaft of another tonearm be the same size as a 98's preventing you from using the 98 mount as is. It was probably serendipity that the arms Esoteric Sound sells for the 598 are true drop-ins. Even they say the S-320MKII arm used on a 208/298/398 might need some modification to the plinth. (I'd imagine they say that because of what arm may be on any given 208. Either Empire's own or another make.)

Question 3: Again, no idea, but with today's tech it shouldn't be hard to do I'd imagine.

I wish I could be of more help.
Click to expand...

I did just sell of some stuff (itching for some new speakers and I need another tube pre. likely going with a Fisher 400) so I have the extra bucks to splash out for the grommets. I'll give them a go, but won't have too much to base it on because the comparison will be to an old set of original grommets :)

Hmmm. I was considering taking the plinth to a machine shop and seeing if I can get a solid one made up from a piece of 6061. It's been yeas since I worked for a company that built industrial machinery (including the machines that make Oreos, the whole place smelt really good when one was in for servicing) but the material should be relatively cheap i.e. less than $100 and it really doesn't need all that much machining. So, if I can get one made up, maybe I'll just have them mill those for whatever arm I am going to decide on. And stick with the 98 for the time being.

Just wondering if anyone already had a template. But yeah, I assume if i get a quality scan of the logo any quality graphics place should be able to do something up.
 
I have a 208 but couldn't offer any suggestions to your original post as mine has not made it out of the box in the two years I've owned it :( I never gave it a thought but I have a 598 to which I have fitted a Nottingham Analogue Spacearm so I'm pretty sure it would work on a 208. If I was going to fit this arm on my 208 and didn't want to drill the top plate I'd machine the arm base to pick up on the three original fixing holes or if necessary I'd make a new one. Linn arms also have the correct mounting distance for the 208. The arm base on most Linn arms fixes with three bolts and you never know your luck! If the the holes dont line up it may be possible to drill and tap three new holes in the arm base. I have a Linn arm hiding somewhere and I'd be happy to take a walk to my workshop and check it out.
 
Chops54 said:
I have a 208 but couldn't offer any suggestions to your original post as mine has not made it out of the box in the two years I've owned it :( I never gave it a thought but I have a 598 to which I have fitted a Nottingham Analogue Spacearm so I'm pretty sure it would work on a 208. If I was going to fit this arm on my 208 and didn't want to drill the top plate I'd machine the arm base to pick up on the three original fixing holes or if necessary I'd make a new one. Linn arms also have the correct mounting distance for the 208. The arm base on most Linn arms fixes with three bolts and you never know your luck! If the the holes dont line up it may be possible to drill and tap three new holes in the arm base. I have a Linn arm hiding somewhere and I'd be happy to take a walk to my workshop and check it out.
Click to expand...

Haha. Mine is in the basement sitting on my workbench and I am telling myself it will be done by the end of the year but you know how that goes.

That would be fantastic. Thanks!
 
Apologies zbarbera, I've been tied up today with building work at home. I'll go to my workshop tomorrow.
 
The Linn boss won’t fit. It has a skirt that’s too large in diameter to fit into the hole in the Empire top plate. The bolt holes in the boss are just a touch wider apart than those in the top plate. To cap it all the Linn arm pillar is 25mm diameter. The hole in the top plate is 24mm.
There are several arms with smaller pillars that can be made to fit but don’t look quite right on this deck. The Mission 774 comes to mind as does the Syrinx PU2. Wouldn’t be so bad if it wasn’t so cottage industry ugly. I have a PU2 on one of my tables and I don’t think I’d want it on my Empire even though it’s a really good performer.
 
Opening out the hole in the top plate is no big deal really. The untrained eye would never notice the slightly larger hole and the original Empire arm would still fit. It's then a matter of drilling and tapping the new arm base to match the Empire bolt holes. Failing that we need to find another arm of the correct mounting distance but with a thinner pillar. I have a couple of ideas up my sleeve but I need to check them out first:)
 
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