I recently purchased a Pro Ject 6 Perspex SB turntable which comes with a Sumiko Amethyst cartridge preinstalled. I read all the reviews around the Amethyst having a warm, (bottom heavy) output. My experience is that this was a profound understatement. IMO it sounds like the mid-range and tweeters have been shut off completely. I have to set the treble control to 100% and even dial the bass back to 25% to create a listenable level. I have an ADC Sound Shaper II MK II equalizer which I'm considering installing between the phono-stage and the amp. With quality cables employed am I really going to degrade the signal noticeably? I am using a Vincent SV-228 Hybrid (tube) integrated amp, Vincent PHO-701 Hybrid (tube) phono-stage, driving Wharfedale Linton Heritage speakers. CDs, and streaming sources all sound GREAT with the bass & treble set to -/+0. The amp has a Tone button which bypasses the tone controls altogether which is usually left off, and only used when a particular recording needs help to balance dynamics. Thoughts?
Equalizer on turntable
- Thread starter Sniggud
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Does this happen with all of your records? If so, you’ll get better mileage by trying out another cart. if you like ”airy” and true, as a CD, then try an audio Technica VM540ML and be done with it.
and sell the amethyst. This will fix the problem at the root.
I personally haven't heard an amethyst and by no means am bashing it. But do own the 540ML and is a great cart. I very rarely use tone controls with my TT setup.
Cheers,
Luis
and sell the amethyst. This will fix the problem at the root.
I personally haven't heard an amethyst and by no means am bashing it. But do own the 540ML and is a great cart. I very rarely use tone controls with my TT setup.
Cheers,
Luis
That won't work. Equalizers are line level devices, and cartridges are far lower in output.
Lavane
Lunatic Member
I see a lot of new tube integrated amps that just have a volume control, and maybe a balance control. So no active tone controls.
I've built several tube amps that just have a volume control, and most sources have plenty of gain to drive an amp without a preamp connected.
If the tube amp your using doesn't have tone controls, then the EQ will act as your tone controls. EQ's are just active tone control devices anyway.
so if you want to use the EQ, just use that tone defeat on your amp and adjust the EQ. My tube preamp has a tape loop. Those can come in handy to attach an EQ. Then you can switch them in and out of circuit.
It's too bad most modern tube gear doesn't have that feature anymore.
I had that feature added when I bought and had my preamp built.
Schiit Audio makes three different active tone control units.
They're easier to use than an EQ with sliders for each channel. Plus they have a bypass switch. Some EQ's do have a bypass switch though.
I've built several tube amps that just have a volume control, and most sources have plenty of gain to drive an amp without a preamp connected.
If the tube amp your using doesn't have tone controls, then the EQ will act as your tone controls. EQ's are just active tone control devices anyway.
so if you want to use the EQ, just use that tone defeat on your amp and adjust the EQ. My tube preamp has a tape loop. Those can come in handy to attach an EQ. Then you can switch them in and out of circuit.
It's too bad most modern tube gear doesn't have that feature anymore.
I had that feature added when I bought and had my preamp built.
Schiit Audio makes three different active tone control units.
They're easier to use than an EQ with sliders for each channel. Plus they have a bypass switch. Some EQ's do have a bypass switch though.
Lavane
Lunatic Member
He is putting it between the phono preamp and amp. It'll work just fine.
Thanks, I missed that.
RunOutGroove
Addicted Member
I would get another cart, rather than deal with that. I am kind of wanting a little EQ unit to run into my headphone amp though, as the different headphones that I own have different EQ and I'd like to be able to adjust that. Funny, but with my main amp, through my speakers, where I might want to adjust for room EQ, I rarely even use tone controls.
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noisefreq
Super Member
An EQ is good at reducing unpleasant frequencies but it won't add frequencies that don't already exist. Sounds like the cartridge is the problem, for what ever reason. I wouldn't trust someone else to align my cartridge. I'd start there and determine what the problem is; alignment, VTA, compliance match, damaged coils?
Mart Mccall
Well-Known Member
This is a moving magnet cartridge? The resistance and capacitance can affect the frequency response:
Load the Magnets!!! - [English]
Debunking the 47 kOhm myth load for MM phono cartridges: simulations, measurements and listening test on TNT-Audio - Internet hifi magazine - www.tnt-audio.com
www.tnt-audio.com
war2thegrave
Active Member
For nearly $3,000, I would not be happy with having to kludge in an equalizer to get an acceptable tone balance.
As stated noisefreq, I would check and adjust VTA to hear if things improve.
Also: you should also try to rule out your phono preamp.
As stated noisefreq, I would check and adjust VTA to hear if things improve.
Also: you should also try to rule out your phono preamp.
jqp
Well-Known Member
I looked up the specs on your Pro Ject 6 and the original RCA cable capacitance is 130pF. Add to that the tonearm wiring and you are probably around 150pF. That would put you in the middle of the suggested capacitance load as recommended by Sumiko. Input capacitance on your phono pre should be as low as possible, even zero if there is such a setting.
Adding a quality equalizer (12 band or more) is always a good thing no matter what the system. Just my .02 cents.
Adding a quality equalizer (12 band or more) is always a good thing no matter what the system. Just my .02 cents.
Doubtful, all things being equal (ie:routing, shielding, etc).
I run all my stuff through 30 feet of rca before into the receiver/amp and have never noticed any “degradation”. 30 feet is about 15 feet to the EQ and 15 feet back. I ran it that way (despite the “experts” decrying the practice) because of where I wanted to physically put the components.
A good check though (to me) is to make sure your EQ goes cleanly into “bypass” when you select it, or “off” if you will. At the very least, I have it set at “flat” for vinyl and CD playback, if not in full bypass.
Some mess with the sound in bypass, some don’t. Depends on the internal architecture. Mine is an “off brand” ICC electronics 10 band:
Nothing special, but gets the job done cleanly. In bypass it is completely transparent. Or at least it is to my ears.
I primarily use the EQ when listening to media like cassette and 8 track. It’s usually in bypass for Vinyl and CD.
I use it to give a little “boost” on the tape formats at certain freqs that don’t come though quite the way I like. 8 track especially eventually ends up with a lot of rolled off highs (though age and use), so the EQ just gives ‘em a little more emphases where I want it. It’s not perfect, but its at least better.
I would suggest re-examining your TT and preamp setup first though. My vinyl comes through nice and clean, which is why I typically don’t use EQ on them….I’m all vintage stuff too. Dual 1249 and Dual 1229q. 1249 runs an ADC XLM MKIII cart and the 1229Q runs a Denon DL-110. Both have a their own ART Phono Pro Pre. Not exactly high end stuff, but it sounds just fine on vinyl without EQ to my ears.
Bonne chance!
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RunOutGroove
Addicted Member
I still think that it's probably the phono cart, or perhaps the phno amp or the match between the two, but I was thinking that if you were to get an EQ, why not hook it up so that it effects the main system, so that you can run everything through it? If you think that you're mostly only going to use it for the turntable, just make sure to get an EQ unit with a bypass switch and bypass the EQ whenever you aren't playing vinyl...
All, It is with much humility and embarrassment that I have to confess to what I can only describe as a senior moment.
It would seem that in my haste to get this new rig up and running after waiting 3 weeks for delivery, that while groping around behind the components connecting the RCA cables to the phono-stage or while setting the capacitance value dipswitches which are even more inconveniently located on the bottom of the unit, I must have inadvertently depressed the MM/MC switch.
I humbly apologize for wasting everyone's time but please know that I do appreciate all of your advice and assistance on this matter. However, it was not totally without benefit. I was able to add a new word to my vocabulary, "kludge". Yes, I looked it up and it was quite apropos for what I was considering. As for the capacitance, that's a learning curve my 63 year old brain is not wired to comprehend. I did read the "Load the Magnets" article in its entirety and afterwards I could not remember my own name. Sumiko recommends 100-200pF and the closest I can get is 115pF or 235pF.
Lastly, in my defense, this is the first turntable that I have purchased since the early 80's when I sold my Onkyo CP-1130 to my best friend to buy a Technics SL-5 linear tracking turntable which I affectionally referred to as the * Close and Pray as the tracking transport mechanism was mounted in the dust cover. I mean what could possibly go wrong with this design? In the 90's I was gifted an ION™ USB turntable with the good intentions of allowing me to digitize my extensive vinyl collection. That was never going to work.
* (sixties kids will get that one)
It would seem that in my haste to get this new rig up and running after waiting 3 weeks for delivery, that while groping around behind the components connecting the RCA cables to the phono-stage or while setting the capacitance value dipswitches which are even more inconveniently located on the bottom of the unit, I must have inadvertently depressed the MM/MC switch.
I humbly apologize for wasting everyone's time but please know that I do appreciate all of your advice and assistance on this matter. However, it was not totally without benefit. I was able to add a new word to my vocabulary, "kludge". Yes, I looked it up and it was quite apropos for what I was considering. As for the capacitance, that's a learning curve my 63 year old brain is not wired to comprehend. I did read the "Load the Magnets" article in its entirety and afterwards I could not remember my own name. Sumiko recommends 100-200pF and the closest I can get is 115pF or 235pF.
Lastly, in my defense, this is the first turntable that I have purchased since the early 80's when I sold my Onkyo CP-1130 to my best friend to buy a Technics SL-5 linear tracking turntable which I affectionally referred to as the * Close and Pray as the tracking transport mechanism was mounted in the dust cover. I mean what could possibly go wrong with this design? In the 90's I was gifted an ION™ USB turntable with the good intentions of allowing me to digitize my extensive vinyl collection. That was never going to work.
* (sixties kids will get that one)
RunOutGroove
Addicted Member
Yeah, that would make the thing sound bad... to not have it switched for the proper type of cart. Though it's another thing to buy, fortunately it isn't much, but it you wanted to try a phono preamp that you could precisely adjust the parameters to match your cart, you might want to think of picking up a Schiiit phonon preamp. I have the Mani II one of theirs and it has lots of adjustments and cost only something like $180 and I'm pretty satisfied with it. They just made a more expensive one, that I'm sure is even better, but that one I think is still pretty cheap. The phono pre that you have here is surely a higher end model than my inexpensive little Schiit amp, but lacks the ability to make adjustments to the loading. I have to wonder, since cartridges are made with all differnt specification, why more phono preamps aren't made with more adjustability in mind...
war2thegrave
Active Member
I've done that before while moving components around.
I spent 10 minutes wondering why it sounded like garbage, believing I damaged the cartridge, before I noticed what happened.
Just a mention about the capacitence, it will include whatever your cables add to the mix, so if the cables are say 100pf, adding another 115 at the phono preamp will give a total of 215pf.
honestly you can just play with that by ear. There is the whole by the book ideal yadda yadda, but if you can easily switch between loading amounts, give it a go and use whatever setting sounds best to you. Its not going to hurt the cartridge or any other equipment if its not loaded "properly".
Those SL-5 and other in that family are honestly not bad. If the drive belt is good, they tend to work extremely well and sound better than you'd think given how cheesy they look.
honestly you can just play with that by ear. There is the whole by the book ideal yadda yadda, but if you can easily switch between loading amounts, give it a go and use whatever setting sounds best to you. Its not going to hurt the cartridge or any other equipment if its not loaded "properly".
Those SL-5 and other in that family are honestly not bad. If the drive belt is good, they tend to work extremely well and sound better than you'd think given how cheesy they look.
jqp
Well-Known Member
As I generally listen to music at 80-82 dB peaks and I have no loudness switch on my current amp, so a bit of bass boost via eq. helps a lot. Also use the warble tones from test cd's to discover frequencies in my speakers (restored Altec Lansing Sevilles) that are louder or softer than others and use eq. to flatten the frequency response.