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Erroll's piano sounds terrible...

Corbin Gross

Corbin Gross

Lost in Translation
So I've been looking around the interwebs to no avail. Do you guys think that piano music is harder to get off a record than other instruments?

I put some Erroll Garner records on an otherwise good sounding system and the piano was all distorted. It sounded much like my Dave Brubeck sounded with an old, worn out needle. The needle has been replaced and Dave sounds fine now, as dos Oscar Peterson, but I tried 5 or 6 Erroll Garner records and they're all crunchy. They're all thrift records, I thought maybe the Erroll Garner records were just abused, but I've purchased them from all different locations and this sound is pretty much unique to them.

What are your thoughts
 
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Put up a list of the Garner recordings with the label information. I am sure many of the members here, have the same recordings and can give you a critique of the recording/playback quality.
I have quite a few Garner albums and they vary as to recording quality.
 
Welcome, Corbin.

I am a big Erroll Garner fan and probably have a dozen+ albums upstairs. Shoot a list of a few that are bad and I'll compare, too. I don't remember that any of them were particularly good sounding, but not super bad, either. :)
 
Concert By The Sea is what it is. Recorded under less than ideal conditions. In the field. What are you playing your vintage jazz records on, many a 1950's jazz LP has no more than 15 K top end on it. So, you're much better served by using some kind of broadcast conical to enjoy what is there.
 
Thank guys.

So what's the one with the gold records on the pegboard in the background? That's the one I noticed it on first, mostly on side one. "Plays Misty" wasn't too bad, but the distortion was there, more so than other piano jazz I've played. And "Moods" was pretty distorted. I can't remember what else I played but I'll come up with a title and track list when I'm home.

Just as a reference for myself, I put on Oscar Peterson's "The Trio" with Joe Pass and Niles Pederson and it sounded perfect.

And I'm playing these on a Sony PS-X45 with brand new Red Ed .6 mil.
 
Corbin Gross said:
Thank guys.

So what's the one with the gold records on the pegboard in the background? That's the one I noticed it on first, mostly on side one. "Plays Misty" wasn't too bad, but the distortion was there, more so than other piano jazz I've played. And "Moods" was pretty distorted. I can't remember what else I played but I'll come up with a title and track list when I'm home.

Just as a reference for myself, I put on Oscar Peterson's "The Trio" with Joe Pass and Niles Pederson and it sounded perfect.

And I'm playing these on a Sony PS-X45 with brand new Red Ed .6 mil.[/QUOTE

The Oscar Peterson album you are using as a comparison is a PABLO recording by Norman Grantz, IMHO most jazz recordings have a tough time living up to Pablo.
Click to expand...
 
Here are some examples of Errol Garner recording put out by Mercury - Wing.

Errol Garner - Moods, MGW 12134 ( mono )

Errol Garner - Deep Purple, Pickwick 33 same as the one above ( stereo )

Errol Garner - Afternoon of an elf, Mercury ( mono ) 826 457-1 Recorded march 14, 1955.

The sound quality are pretty good!:music:
 
Alright, the kids are in bed and all the records have been cleaned and played.

I have the Moods album in stereo (SRW 16134) and that's actually the worst of them. Probably wrecked then... not a big investment at .45c. Basically it just sounds like it's being played with a worn out stylus, which is probably what happened with it's former owner.

Here's the list of bad sounding records:
Erroll Garner (no title? CL535? Still learning this stuff) the record has a white pegboard wall with some record stampy things and a tape reel.
Plays Misty (MG 20662)
Errol Garner (one "L") At The Piano (MG 20009)

These sound great:
Concert by the Sea
Erroll Garner (CL535 again but with a black cover and yellow and white text, I just noticed that)
Gemini
Soliloquy
Campus Concert
Gems
Up in Erroll's Room

So generally speaking, with piano records does the sound get worse as you get toward the center of the disk? I'm listening to Dave Brubeck's greatest hits and that seems to be the case. I think that's just the way it goes with records, right? Is that this "inner groove distortio"n I've heard so much about?
 
Yes, it sounds like they were played on a Victrola in their previous life. :) Unfortunately, there's not much you can do about that. Keep your eye out for better versions as you are thrifting (or whatever) and frame any good covers after you toss the wrecked records.
 
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Agreed. Piano will bring out the worst in any system.

Couple things I'd try - cartridge alignment and anti-skate settings. The alignment isn't as much of an issue with an spherical tip, but anti-skate can bite you. If the distortion you're hearing is more towards the center of the record, might want to play with that and see if you can find a sweet spot.

Tracking force is also a biggie. Maybe Garner is the ultimate test record that can show up any incorrect settings that don't seem to bother other material? Anyway, try adjusting that to the middle of the range of both the cartridge and arm (should be around 2g on your setup), then up and down a nudge or two and see if that helps improve tracking those difficult sections.

Also, make sure your table is PERFECTLY level. If you don't have a good bubble gauge, get one. I got me a few thin rubber washers from the hardware store and stacked them under the TT legs as needed. Once I got where I needed to be, I was able to insert those between the legs and TT body. Works real nice.

Not to disrespect your Red Ed, but there's a whole lot better cartridges out there too. Two camps as to whether you really need a spherical tip for the old stuff. You just have to be real careful with cartridge alignment if you use an elliptical stylus. All else fails, maybe time to upgrade ... or change your taste in music ...

Some times, all it takes is more time to get it right. If you wanted easy, you'd be listening to a cd, right?
 
Quite often the " best of......" LPs are not that good overall.

May be because the tracks are from different masters ? :scratch2:
 
I'm about half way through "Soliloquy" right now and it's just dazzling. I'm pretty easy to impress with a record set up. And the sound is great, or consistant, all the way through the tracks. I know what you mean about greatest hits though. They always sound like they just didn't care.

I don't mind the work really, so the leveling and tweaking is just part of the adventure. I'm pretty handy, so I've my choice of levels at hand. I'm fairly confident in the alignment, I used the guide on the back of the Sony mat. I'll defiantly tweak the antiskate though.

And the Red Ed is just my first stop. I've got the current set up basically because it was the least expensive record player within driving distance on CL and the Ed was the cheapest new cart. We're a young family of 5 on one income (by choice, love the quality time) so my music budget is super tight. The funny thing is that this is such a huge upgrade to what I was playing before! I'm really enjoying this so far.

All in all, I'm just trying to learn stuff. Some stuff sounds good and some stuff sounds bad and there's usually an interesting reason behind it.
 
Keep asking questions!!! :music:

There are lots of very knowledgeable and helpful members here. :thmbsp:

Going to find my copy of "Soliloquy"! :D
 
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The increased fuzziness as you run inward on an album is known as inner groove distortion, or IGD. You'll find vastly more info about it than you ever wanted if you punch that up in a search. Its not specific to piano music, but piano tones are probably a little more pure than say rock albums are, so you're more inclined to notice that something is wrong. Its not the fault of the recording, its just showing you that things aren't quite right.


Conicals honestly don't track that great. I've run a Red Ed conical, and its OK, but really nothing stellar. They are 15 bucks for a reason. I've been meaning to pick up one of the ellipticals just to see what it does. How's your alignment? Thats a fairly picky thing to set, and it has a lot of effect on IGD and overall sound. Also, do you have the tracking force and anti-skate set properly? Track weight is whatever is suggested for the cart. I think that one runs 1.25 or 1.5g, antiskate is generally set to the same as the tracking force unless you've got some better way of measuring it.
 
Corbin Gross said:
Here's the list of bad sounding records:
Erroll Garner (no title? CL535? Still learning this stuff) the record has a white pegboard wall with some record stampy things and a tape reel.

These sound great:
Erroll Garner (CL535 again but with a black cover and yellow and white text, I just noticed that)
Click to expand...

Those are both the same album (CL 535), of course, but you have to look at the labels to really see what is going on - the jackets can be particularly deceiving:
- The black cover with the while/yellow text should probably have a record with a fairly plain maroon label and gold text. This is an original pressing (1953-55).
- The pegboard/reels jacket should have a Columbia "six-eye" label record, which is stark red with black text and three Columbia "eyes" on each the left and right label edges. This is a later pressing (1956+).

The maroon-label Columbias are pretty collectable ($60 NM book value for yours) but it's all moot if they were played with a "nail" back in the day. :)

BTW: I have both of those, too, and am playing the first one right now. :music:
 
Corbin Gross said:
Do you guys think that piano music is harder to get off a record than other instruments?
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Yes indeed.

The piano is a very complex instrument. Not only is it polyphonic, it also has a million harmonics. It can be played in a very dynamic and percussive manner, or sound as smooth as silk. It is one of the most difficult instruments to mic, and has proven been one of the most complex to digitize for electronic keyboards and synthesizers. Needless to say, it's difficult to accurately cut and track on record. Piano playback inevitably falls short towards the inner grooves.

It's kind of funny, but the topic of IGD has been brought up several times in the last month or so. In fact, AK members Brett a and Bob in OKC posted audio clips from their personal systems from the first and last tracks of several records. The order was shuffled so we would have to guess which were inner tracks and which were outer. This can be found in these threads:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=407946

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=407638

A couple of Brett's samples were extremely difficult to tell what was inner and what was outer, except for one... which had piano! The piano was the giveaway. Same with Bob in OKC's sample. The IGD was clearly evident in the piano.

I can hear it in my own system as well. What I hear in a well recorded piano is rich tone, depth, and lush harmonics in the outer grooves. Towards the inner grooves, piano tends to lose some of it's depth and liveliness, and on poor quality or worn records it can sound dull or downright fuzzy.

Better styli (elliptical or better yet, line contact) will improve piano playback.
 
Hi everyone. Chiming in because the thread's title got my attention.
Other than two copies of London stereo LPs by Garner, my favorite being Gemini, I have 1 interesting Lp of his as well. It's Piano Favorites by Guest-Star records pressed at Synthetic Plastics Corp NJ .
Styrene I assume, monaural & interesting to me since it lists all the mic's used and the ampex 200 (iirc) recorder. Bit of nostalgia of analog there.
luckily it's solid VG+ shape and plays nicely on an AT-92ecd mounted on the pioneer pl200 (haha..)
Probably my best example of a highly rich, 'warm' sound.
 
Balifly said:
Quite often the " best of......" LPs are not that good overall.

May be because the tracks are from different masters ? :scratch2:
Click to expand...

That's exactly why.

When producing compilation and greatest hits LPs, rather than cut the 1st gen masters of the individual songs from the original albums' assembled master reels (which would make it difficult to re-cut lacquers down the road for the original albums), they used tape copies to assemble the master reel for the comp. Most of the time we don't notice it, if enough care is taken when the masters are duped.

I recently got a copy of the 1966 LP, "Dave Brubeck's Greatest Hits," and there is some pretty crunchy piano throughout the album. Joe Morello's cymbals are also very fuzzy and smeared. This is not due to the quality of the recordings, nor does it sound like distortion from the record itself; Columbia just used inferior tape copies to master the compilation from.
 
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