ESS AMT best passive radiator?

[mr.jones]

Picked up a pair of ESS AMT 1d off CL. In good shape except the passive radiators are bad. They are completely rotted and hanging by a thread barely in place so I can see behind on one of them that there is a small piece of thin MDF wood about the size of a playing card glued to the back. Anyone have any advice on where to get replacements and if this piece of wood needs to be glued onto the new one?:scratch2:

 

[Big Mike]

Ess can sell you the parts and/or do the repair for you. They are really nice people there.

 

[TerryO]

Don't bother repairing those old Passive Radiators, as they were junk even back then. The biggest criticism (back in the day) was the bass of the ESS. IIRC, the woofers were actually pretty decent, but those ultra-cheap PR's really compromised the sound. Go to PE and get some decent replacements, it'll be a bit of work, but you can end up with speakers that will sound even better than they did brand new.

(No kidding! :yes

Best Regards,
TerryO

 

[automojo]

Don't bother repairing those old Passive Radiators, as they were junk even back then. The biggest criticism (back in the day) was the bass of the ESS. IIRC, the woofers were actually pretty decent, but those ultra-cheap PR's really compromised the sound. Go to PE and get some decent replacements, it'll be a bit of work, but you can end up with speakers that will sound even better than they did brand new.

(No kidding! :yes

Best Regards,
TerryO

Just slapping in any old passive probably isn't the best route IMHO, as you might end up with worse sound. I think some of them wern't tuned properly from the start, which can be easily remidied.
Personally I start with a stock piece, and work at getting it tuned.
As with the AMT3's, those cabinet can benifit from a good strengthening and sealing job. Epoxy on all the internal cabinet seems, and finish up with silicone. Also make sure the woofer and passive are properly sealed. PE speaker gasket tape works well. I would also recommend a recap, nothing special needed, new moden electrolytics are fine.
Sealing the cabinets in my AMT3's mad a huge difference. While the 3's they benefit from 2 10" woofers and a midbass/transition driver-the bass is amazing IMHO-quick, punchy, and highly detailed. I have heard alot of speakers in the past, but have never experienced this type of wide, flat, blooming bass before in any speaker. Just short of amazing. Not boomy or rattleing, but like stting in front of you favorite performer, the way music should sound. A natural, engaging and involving sound-not background music- but MUSIC!!
Visitng friends are constantly amazed at really how well, and how truly musical these speakers are. They require a bit of intial work due to there age, and some lack of manufactoring detail, but well worth the effort.
Those old Alnico woofers really deliver, and integrate well with the Great Heil and cabinets.
The main advantage with the transition driver is you have a Great Heil speaker with a essentialy flat frequency response.
Even though those AMT have a few minor difficiences (what speaker doesn't?), they are well worth the effort, and will still IMHO blow away most speakers.
The new ESS IMHO really needs to get back to the roots of these great speakers.
Build a nice AMT and AMT3-get CTS/Eminence to make them some nice drivers to compliment the Heil (like a 1040sf/etc), and perhaps get them to source the cabinets (@ Allison Acoustics), get the crossover right with some quality engineering and components-and they will truely have at least 2 speakers that will give every other manufactor a seroius run for their money at any price-true world beaters!!

 

[tubed]

That type of PR can actually be refoamed with inexpensive 12" surrounds.

 

[TerryO]

That type of PR can actually be refoamed with inexpensive 12" surrounds.

If you're referring to the old, stock PR's, they aren't worth a pound of piss. They were decidedly third rate even at the time they came out. What they consist of is pretty much just a circle of cardboard with a surround and a chunk of wood glued on the back for mass.
When those things reached their supposed "Tuned" frequency, they would start wildly gyrating, rocking and flopping around.
I even have a pair (NIB!!!) of those POS PRs buried somewhere in my driver hoard. I'm saving them for the day when I feel the acute need to build a really horrible speaker.

PE will have decent PR's that don't flop around, because of better build quality and they actually have spiders to ensure linear travel and proper damping (in Japan, they're actually referred to as Dampers). There will probably have to be a calculated amount of mass applied to supply the correct frequency tuning.

I was attempting to keep it simple and concise, but automojo is wrong, I wasn't suggesting that any old thing be slapped in there. I've certain used "a few" of them, as well as been in on the actual development/design of a couple of Passive Radiators as well.

Best Regards,
TerryO

 

[tubed]

If you're referring to the old, stock PR's, they aren't worth a pound of piss. They were decidedly third rate even at the time they came out. What they consist of is pretty much just a circle of cardboard with a surround and a chunk of wood glued on the back for mass.
When those things reached their supposed "Tuned" frequency, they would start wildly gyrating, rocking and flopping around.
I even have a pair (NIB!!!) of those POS PRs buried somewhere in my driver hoard. I'm saving them for the day when I feel the acute need to build a really horrible speaker.

PE will have decent PR's that don't flop around, because of better build quality and they actually have spiders to ensure linear travel and proper damping (in Japan, they're actually referred to as Dampers). There will probably have to be a calculated amount of mass applied to supply the correct frequency tuning.



I was attempting to keep it simple and concise, but automojo is wrong, I wasn't suggesting that any old thing be slapped in there. I've certain used "a few" of them, as well as been in on the actual development/design of a couple of Passive Radiators as well.

Best Regards,
TerryO

I was actually only referring to those discs which can be refoamed... they did seem rather questionable, however never noticed any "wild gyrating flopping" though:scratch2:

 

[bobrown14]

That type of PR can actually be refoamed with inexpensive 12" surrounds.

+1 - thats what I did with mine.

Cheers,
Bob

 

[automojo]

If you're referring to the old, stock PR's, they aren't worth a pound of piss. They were decidedly third rate even at the time they came out. What they consist of is pretty much just a circle of cardboard with a surround and a chunk of wood glued on the back for mass.
When those things reached their supposed "Tuned" frequency, they would start wildly gyrating, rocking and flopping around.
I even have a pair (NIB!!!) of those POS PRs buried somewhere in my driver hoard. I'm saving them for the day when I feel the acute need to build a really horrible speaker.

PE will have decent PR's that don't flop around, because of better build quality and they actually have spiders to ensure linear travel and proper damping (in Japan, they're actually referred to as Dampers). There will probably have to be a calculated amount of mass applied to supply the correct frequency tuning.

I was attempting to keep it simple and concise, but automojo is wrong, I wasn't suggesting that any old thing be slapped in there. I've certain used "a few" of them, as well as been in on the actual development/design of a couple of Passive Radiators as well.

Best Regards,
TerryO

I had a pair of PS1220's that had a 12 inch passive foam slab (no cardboard), and those speakers sounded excellent, nothing flabby at all with the bass.
The AMT Monitors that had a front mounted passive were also far from 'flabby' sounding.
With a rear passive such as yours, one has to experiment with the placement for best results-usually a foot or two from the back wall, avoiding corners (although you might like the increase in bass-but it can become boomy). Seems these AMT's sound their best, and provide a nice wide concise soundstage at around 5/6 feet apart.
I don't claim to be a speaker designer-or any other 'wild' claims, or who is "right" or 'wrong'(?) by any means. (Although I do have quite a bit of experience with ESS AMT's, and successful improvements on those ESS speakers).
I was simply suggesting to try a stock one and tune it and go from there- you might actually be satisfied with the sound. After all the speaker was designed with the passive slab in mind. Sealing and strengthing of the cabinet and drivers makes a huge difference IMHO, along with making sure you have the proper amount of dampening material. These IMHO will probably make a bigger difference in the quantity and quality of bass than the type of passive used.
My experience with ESS AMT's is that you can easily do too much 'reegineering' and end up with less than optimum sound. They did put some thoughts into their designs, regardless of what some may think.
A few tweaks here and there seem to work best-usually just basic stuff such as sealing, strengthening, checking and resolder connections, recap etc-nothing too fancy.
Your descison on wether I was 'wrong' or not- what ever that is suppose to mean?:scratch2:
As far as elborating, well those AMT's deserve a bit of that-awesome speakers!

 

[TerryO]

If you wish to use refoamed surrounds to keep the "authenic, engineered sound" that you'll get as result, go for it...it's certainly going to be a lot cheaper.

The best AMT-style speakers that I ever heard were Chris Bobiak's speakers that paired the Heil with Bi-pole TAD 10 inch (or were they 12 inch?) drivers that he brought down from Victoria, BC to VSAC some years ago. Those were absolutely excellent, although very pricey.

Best Regards,
TerryO

 

[TerryO]

Since I was quoted in reference to your previous reply, I think that you've certainly taken a great deal of what I've said out of context.

I had a pair of PS1220's that had a 12 inch passive foam slab (no cardboard), and those speakers sounded excellent, nothing flabby at all with the bass.
The AMT Monitors that had a front mounted passive were also far from 'flabby' sounding.

Apples and Oranges. I believe that the OP was talking about his speakers, not the completely different models that you own (or have owned).

I mentioned the fact that early reviews of the AMT noted that the bass was not well integrated. My contention is that the Passive Radiator that was used is substandard and can be replaced with a far better unit that is superior in every way. I might mention that I said "flopping around", and then you went on and used the terms: "flabby" and "flabby bass" which I never said.

This was your reply to my earlier post:

Just slapping in any old passive probably isn't the best route IMHO, as you might end up with worse sound. I think some of them wern't tuned properly from the start, which can be easily remidied.

I mentioned that a better unit (like the units from PE, which I specifically mentioned, not "any old passive") could be substituted and, as with all such units, would probably need added mass to correctly tune it for that specific cabinet. This is standard with PRs. I noticed with some interest, that you also seem to believe that even the old unit could probably use some additional attention to tuning.

With a rear passive such as yours, one has to experiment with the placement for best results-usually a foot or two from the back wall, avoiding corners (although you might like the increase in bass-but it can become boomy). Seems these AMT's sound their best, and provide a nice wide concise soundstage at around 5/6 feet apart.

Sounds like good advice to me.

I don't claim to be a speaker designer-or any other 'wild' claims, or who is "right" or 'wrong'(?) by any means. (Although I do have quite a bit of experience with ESS AMT's, and successful improvements on those ESS speakers).
I was simply suggesting to try a stock one and tune it and go from there- you might actually be satisfied with the sound. After all the speaker was designed with the passive slab in mind. Sealing and strengthing of the cabinet and drivers makes a huge difference IMHO, along with making sure you have the proper amount of dampening material. These IMHO will probably make a bigger difference in the quantity and quality of bass than the type of passive used.
My experience with ESS AMT's is that you can easily do too much 'reegineering' and end up with less than optimum sound. They did put some thoughts into their designs, regardless of what some may think.

I've taken the liberty of highlighting a couple of your sentences. You maintain that the original design was (I guess) well thought out and just what was needed for great sound. You then mention that attempting any "reengineering" can easily lead to "less than optimum sound" and that "They did put some thought into their design, regardless of what some may think."

What's curious is that you also advocate insuring that the proper amount of damping material is used, along with "sealing and strengthening" the cabinet.
If, as you state, they really put a lot of thought into this design, why is it necessary to "reengineer" their exceptionally well thought out design? However, I definitely do think that they should have put more thought into their design and evidently you do as well, but you seem to take exception to my remarks.
Very curious indeed.
:scratch2:

A few tweaks here and there seem to work best-usually just basic stuff such as sealing, strengthening, checking and resolder connections, recap etc-nothing too fancy.

I agree completely, no problem as far as I'm concerned.:thmbsp:

Your descison on wether I was 'wrong' or not- what ever that is suppose to mean?:scratch2:

I believe that I've pointed out above, what I believe was wrong with what you said. You may want, in the future, to focus on reading with more precision and writing with more discretion.

As far as elborating, well those AMT's deserve a bit of that-awesome speakers!

Yes, they have great potential!

Terry Olson

 

[automojo]

To each his own.
I could waste my timing picking apart your post/opinons as well, or take some sort of personal offense, but what would be the point? I also sense some sort of personal agenda. Regardless I'll pass.
Thanks for the advice on how to sharpen up my post reading skills, I'll keep that in mind.
I stand by my thoughts and and recommendations. Take them or leave them. And for the record, these were directed at the OP, not TerryO.
Of course these were in the end-obviously my personal opinions and experiences. They were not by any means points of fact, or even stated as such (some people here @ AK have actually found my experiences and opinions on ESS AMT's helpful-belive it or not) as were your post(s) as well-thought and opinions.
A world of difference between the two, and thus how to respond to them in a 'critical' manner. But that seems to be the current flavor of the day in many walks of life-the need of people to 'educate' others on their personal opinons and thoughts.
Personally I find it more amusing than anything I suppose.
If I was stating facts, your last point by point response may have actually been more interesting.

 

[kocozze]

Hi all.
Sorry for My bad English.
Anyone have compared the sound of flat passive radiator and cone passive radiator of ess amt 1d? Which the differenze in sound signature?

Many thanks