First Budget Build - Go For Strong Receiver or Multiple Cheap Amps?

[Potniy]

Hello all! Thank you for the resource you provide!

Please bear with my longwinded post until I get to my question. I am a 29 year old male located in Southern California looking to put together a solid home stereo system on a budget. By budget, I really mean as low as possible ($500 or less). My current listening setup is a samsung ht-ds610 all in one dvd player system. Nominally, it puts out 100 w X 5 plus a 100w subwoofer. The sound is passable, but really only suited for small rooms. I can only assume these power figures are at the far end of fancy, given the small size of the actual speakers (4 ohms) compared to what I've seen from other manufacturers. I will be gifting this away and starting from scratch.

In my research, I have come under the impression that good, powerful speakers in solid condition are actually more difficult to find than a decent receiver or amplifier. As such, I would rather dedicate most of my budget to those, and slowly upgrade my gear to get the most out of it. I know that overdriving an underpowered receiver can be dangerous, so I am trying to at least start out with a decent setup.

Shipping costs seem to dictate that most of my buying will be done local, via craigslist, offerup/letgo and other classifieds. So far, the best deals on speakers that I have found are these (all local classifieds):

Athena AS-F1 Floor speakers, 2 x $50 each. These are rated to 175-200watts, but one of them has a broken female banana plug port (it seems to have lost part of its housing). However, the seller insists that the speaker still works and the plug is able to stay seated correctly.

Athena AS-C1 center channel speaker, $70. High power capacity means this should serve well as I eventually move into a larger space

JBL N26, pair of speakers for $80. 125 watt capacity, 88db sensitivity

JBL N38, pair of speakers priced around $100-150 for both. rated 175w max and 90db sensitivity

Kenwood JL-770. $30 for a pair. Pictures seem alright but I have heard these are not well regarded?

Kenwood JL-850w. $25 for the pair

Kenwood LSK-702w. $40 for the pair

JBL SUB135 200 watt subwoofer. $50

I would like to start off with powerful, floor standing speakers. I may be moving into an industrial loft type of space, and generally listen to bass heavy electronic music (drum and bass) or heavier guitar music (metal, postrock, hardcore) and hip hop. Given the relative difficulty and infrequency of good deals on quality speakers vs amps and receivers, Id like to buy ones that I can keep for a while. I am not looking to refoam or redo any capacitors / crossovers, so I want to avoid any potential projects. I am happy to mix and match equipment.

I barely watch any TV / Netflix / Movies, and I only occasionally listen to spanish guitar, jazz, and classical, so accuracy, neutrality, separation and detail are not as important to me as strong bass and presence, power capacity, and reliability (my apologies if that is sacrilegious around here!). If the community insists that I've got it all wrong, I am open to learning!

As far as the power to the speakers goes, I have been spending most of my time attempting to find decent receivers capable of putting out at least 100-110 WPC into 5+ channels (knowing that most of these ratings are fanciful as well). Here are some of the best deals I have found (also all local classifieds). Power figures are for 8 ohms, which seem to be the impedance figures for most of the speakers I find for sale:

Onkyo HT-R530. 110 WPC x 7. $60 from one, $50 from another seller

Onkyo TX-SR805. 130 WPC x 7. $100

Kenwood KR-797. 110 WPC x 5. $50

Pioneer Elite VSX-80TXV. 110 WPC x 7. $150

Denon AVR-4800. 150 WPC x 7. $250

Marantz SR7200. 110 WPC x 6. $90

Marantz SR6003. 100 WPC x 7. $150

Marantz SR9300. 105 WPC x 7. $250

I also have in my possession an Onkyo TX-SV636 receiver. It is seemingly worthless, 85 WPC into the front and 30 WPC for surrounds. I dont even have a remote, but found one for $12.

Now, my question: Instead of shelling out for a receiver, should I utilize the Onkyo SV636 I already have, which has Front / Center / Rear / Sub pre-outs, or buy another cheap receiver that has pre-outs, and instead put more of my budget towards getting two or three stereo amps to drive the speakers (maybe one for front, one for rear, and one for center)? I am seeing a host of small stereo amplifiers on ebay in the neighborhood of 100-120 WPC. I assume that some of these might be overly enthusiastic in their power ratings, but dedicated power is still better than integrated, right? And if I can score two or three of these cheap enough, perhaps at 50-80 dollars apiece, would I have a more powerful / versatile setup than dumping it all into an integrated receiver? If this is the case, what are some good tips and tricks for identifying quality examples at a good price?

I am ready to be enlightened! Thank you for taking the time to read all this.

 

[Markoneswift]

Hello there and welcome to AK ! You should subscribe to the site and then you can check out all the great deals in our Bartertown section.

If you go to the Dollars and Sense forum, you will see several threads detailing what people have found for cheap at garage sales, thrift stores, estate sales and at Goodwill, Savers, Value Village etc etc. There really are still some great deals to be had that could get you a very decent system for under $500.

I'm curious in the first instance why you want 5 channel sound as you barely watch TV / Netflix etc - do you watch a lot of movies with surround sound tracks or not ? Home theatre receivers are not generally loved for their stereo music production, even though some do sound great. Many on this site would recommend a dedicated 2 channel setup for your hifi adventures and so would I.

The receivers you list are nice, but don't forget with all the added circuitry in there for video, dolby decoding etc, there's a heck of a lot to go wrong. Often the simplicity of the stereo amplifier / receiver makes for a more reliable and pleasing experience.

Hope this helps a little, keep us informed of your progress.

 

[Potniy]

Thanks for your reply! Truth be told I just like the feeling of being surrounded by music when I am listening. Occasionally I will play multi-channel albums encoded in a format that supports such. All in all, my assumption was that at minimum, a 4 or 5 channel setup would allow me to enjoy pretty much everything at some reasonable level of quality.

 

[orsen]

if your not into video, why look at avr's
i know from experience,the athena's are good speakers [ tweeters are no longer available]
and the price is very good
i dont know those jbl

i get that avr's are easier to find
i would be looking for an older one, that still has phono in
also consider looking for one that has high power to the the fronts, preferably a and b
and smaller power to the surround speakers, these are usually older and were built more for music while surround was still kind of a new novelty


with the newer avr's make sure you get the remote or you lose functionality

 

[Markoneswift]

Thanks for your reply! Truth be told I just like the feeling of being surrounded by music when I am listening. Occasionally I will play multi-channel albums encoded in a format that supports such. All in all, my assumption was that at minimum, a 4 or 5 channel setup would allow me to enjoy pretty much everything at some reasonable level of quality.

Well multi-channel encoded is all good for playing on such a system but what about traditional two channel stereo - if you listening in pseudo-surround, the system will be creating effects and adding stuff in that shouldn't really be there. I can say, from recent experience, that if you have a quality two channel rig with good placement of speakers etc then you can achieve the feeling of being surrounded by music even though it's only coming from two speakers. The effect is in your head, and it's great when it's right

 

[Markoneswift]

If you were going to go the HT receiver route than personally, I would go with any of the Marantz units or the Pioneer Elite. I own an Onkyo TX-SR505e which is in my HT setup but musically I don't enjoy it as much as my two channel amps.

 

[Xtinc]

For your price target, type of music and seldom use of tv/movies I would concentrate on a quality 2 channel setup. Maybe a pair of the higher regarded Cerwin Vega and a preamp/power amp setup from Yamaha, Adcom, etc.

 

[Potniy]

Well multi-channel encoded is all good for playing on such a system but what about traditional two channel stereo - if you listening in pseudo-surround, the system will be creating effects and adding stuff in that shouldn't really be there. I can say, from recent experience, that if you have a quality two channel rig with good placement of speakers etc then you can achieve the feeling of being surrounded by music even though it's only coming from two speakers. The effect is in your head, and it's great when it's right

If you were going to go the HT receiver route than personally, I would go with any of the Marantz units or the Pioneer Elite. I own an Onkyo TX-SR505e which is in my HT setup but musically I don't enjoy it as much as my two channel amps.

For your price target, type of music and seldom use of tv/movies I would concentrate on a quality 2 channel setup. Maybe a pair of the higher regarded Cerwin Vega and a preamp/power amp setup from Yamaha, Adcom, etc.

Thank you all for the input! Do you all have any feedback on the speaker options I listed? I am leaning towards grabbing the Athena's Floor x 2 and Center x 1, as they seem to be priced well and very well regarded. Paired with the 200w JBL woofer, it should be a solid starter system, I think?

My only confusion is that it seems that it is even MORE difficult to find an inexpensive amp that is reliably capable of 100-120+ WPC than it is to find a receiver. Since most manufacturers seem to inflate their numbers, what do you guys think the minimum wattage I would need to drive those Athenas is?

If I go this route, I am probably going to get just one amp, for just the Athena speakers. There dont seem to be too many 3 channel amps around. I would try to drive the center from the receiver itself, but the Athena C1 center speaker is 150w rated on its own, do you guys think that would be too high for a budget receiver to try for?

 

[darkblue94]

It's difficult to find anything if you don't really know what it is that you are looking for to begin with. Maybe take some more time to learn all you can before wasting good money on mistakes.
A well thought out two channel stereo system can be a portal to absolute heavenly joy and sonic bliss.
Being that you're in SoCal, you have access to hands-on retailers of quality pre-owned stereo gear and it would serve you well to take advantage of this option. Good luck and rock on.

 

[Potniy]

So I found the Behringer A500 2 channel amp, which seems to have been tested at 138 WPC and is cited as 160 WPC. It seems to be namedropped a lot as one of the best budget amps around, and refurbished units can be had at $135 including shipping! Is this my best bet? Either this or the Behringer KM750, at the same price?

 

[onplane]

Now, my question: Instead of shelling out for a receiver, should I utilize the Onkyo SV636 I already have, which has Front / Center / Rear / Sub pre-outs, or buy another cheap receiver that has pre-outs, and instead put more of my budget towards getting two or three stereo amps to drive the speakers (maybe one for front, one for rear, and one for center)? I am seeing a host of small stereo amplifiers on ebay in the neighborhood of 100-120 WPC. I assume that some of these might be overly enthusiastic in their power ratings, but dedicated power is still better than integrated, right? And if I can score two or three of these cheap enough, perhaps at 50-80 dollars apiece, would I have a more powerful / versatile setup than dumping it all into an integrated receiver? If this is the case, what are some good tips and tricks for identifying quality examples at a good price?

I am ready to be enlightened! Thank you for taking the time to read all this.

You asked a ton of questions here, so allow me to add to the confusion.

First off, those Athens are pretty efficient. Just about any amp rated at 70 wpc will handle them with ease. A larger amp will NOT sound better. It will just allow you to annoy your neighbors more.

Next when you are on a budget, just remember those 30 year old amps are approaching their life expectancy. New amps with warranties might be better value.

Finally, just wanted to bring to your attention a very unique two channel unit that has 4 full range amps rated at 100 wpc @ 4 ohms all in a single box.

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/50-4640

Now, 4 amps = two stereo amps, so you can easily power 4 sets of speakers providing they are all 8 ohms or higher.

This unit also allows for extremely easy bi-amping, if you ever get some difficult to drive speakers.

Now it does have a phono input, but absolutely nothing in the way of movie sound processing. It's just raw power in a one box.

Like I said, allow me to add to the confusion.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[Markoneswift]

As already mentioned above, don't get hung up on power output and watts. 100 wpc ? 120 ? 150 ? 200 ? That's the stuff of the 'receiver wars' of the mid to late Seventies. It's what made amps / receivers get bigger and bigger and more and more expensive.

I don't know about your personal taste but I can only bare to listen to music that's reading around 10 watts or less on my output meters. Anything above that is just deafening and horrid and loud.

As I've mentioned in other similar posts to yours, a little thing called damping factor is as important as output power (and output power is OFTEN mis-quoted too). The damping factor of an amp is the amp's ability to meet the demands placed upon it by the user - a 100 wpc amp with a crappy damping factor of 50 or less is going to struggle with crisp highs and deep lows, especially if you 'love it loud'. A more 'respectable' amp with say 50 wpc BUT a damping factor of 100 or more will blow your socks off in comparison - to put it crudely, it will just have more balls !!

From what I see, even the Pioneer Elite unit you initially listed has a damping factor of 60 - my Yamaha R-S700 (although rated 100 wpc) has a damping factor of over 240 which would spit in the eye of almost all HT receivers. The Yamaha goes deep, loud and does it clean

 

[Markoneswift]

So I found the Behringer A500 2 channel amp, which seems to have been tested at 138 WPC and is cited as 160 WPC. It seems to be namedropped a lot as one of the best budget amps around, and refurbished units can be had at $135 including shipping! Is this my best bet? Either this or the Behringer KM750, at the same price?

No, it's not your best bet. It's a power amplifier which will need a pre-amp to connect all your inputs to. You van either go the 'integrated' route where you get a pre and power amp in one box (like my Yamaha) or you can go the separate preamplifier / power amplifier route which ultimately can get a bit pricey.

 

[Potniy]

As I've mentioned in other similar posts to yours, a little thing called damping factor is as important as output power (and output power is OFTEN mis-quoted too). The damping factor of an amp is the amp's ability to meet the demands placed upon it by the user - a 100 wpc amp with a crappy damping factor of 50 or less is going to struggle with crisp highs and deep lows, especially if you 'love it loud'. A more 'respectable' amp with say 50 wpc BUT a damping factor of 100 or more will blow your socks off in comparison - to put it crudely, it will just have more balls !!

From what I see, even the Pioneer Elite unit you initially listed has a damping factor of 60 - my Yamaha R-S700 (although rated 100 wpc) has a damping factor of over 240 which would spit in the eye of almost all HT receivers. The Yamaha goes deep, loud and does it clean

No, it's not your best bet. It's a power amplifier which will need a pre-amp to connect all your inputs to. You van either go the 'integrated' route where you get a pre and power amp in one box (like my Yamaha) or you can go the separate preamplifier / power amplifier route which ultimately can get a bit pricey.

I was under the impression a receiver could act as a pre-amp, if you use the "pre out" connections to send the signal to the amplifier? I was basically thinking I could use the existing Onkyo SV636 in my possession as a simple pre-amp, since it has F / R / C "pre out" connections, and just put money towards decent amps (like the Behringers) to drive good speakers. In this scenario, is damping still a significant factor?

From the list of receivers I have been looking at, looks like only the Marantz SR9300 has a large damping factor of 200. The others are either 60 or the information is not to be had.

I guess I should probably work my question backwards: Given solid speakers in the 120-200w range, what is the cheapest way to drive 4 of them?

 

[OMGCat!]

^^^Using your receiver as a pre driving a power amp will do exactly what you want. You can pick how big or small the amp you want is.

Not sure what part of SoCal you're in but there are a few 5 channel power amps on CL between San Diego and LA right now. You can use as many or as few channels as you want on those and
If you really want to keep the multi-channel going but want to play it at high volumes you almost need to go this route. Don't discount pro amps as well.

I haven't heard any of the gear listed in your OP so can't really comment.

 

[Markoneswift]

Actually yeah, OMGCat! is exactly right about using your existing receiver as it does indeed have pre-outs - I probably didn't read all of your original post about what equipment you have. So yes you could take those outputs and feed them to power amps, which mostly have pretty good damping factors and that becomes less of an issue.

 

[sqlsavior]

Far from being a determining factor in amplifier sound quality, damping factor is only one of many specifications which are very nearly irrelevant.

You will probably learn faster by trusting your ears, and paying almost no attention to specifications, at least with regard to sound quality. Some specifications tell you something meaningful, such as a turntable's wow and flutter, or a speaker's efficiency, but most specifications don't really distinguish anything of importance to sound quality.

 

[onplane]

I guess I should probably work my question backwards: Given solid speakers in the 120-200w range, what is the cheapest way to drive 4 of them?

See my earlier post on that Sherwood unit. This unit can handle 2 sets of speakers with an independent volume control for each set.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[Potniy]

^^^Using your receiver as a pre driving a power amp will do exactly what you want. You can pick how big or small the amp you want is.

Not sure what part of SoCal you're in but there are a few 5 channel power amps on CL between San Diego and LA right now. You can use as many or as few channels as you want on those and
If you really want to keep the multi-channel going but want to play it at high volumes you almost need to go this route. Don't discount pro amps as well.

I haven't heard any of the gear listed in your OP so can't really comment.

Thanks for the tip! I am seeing a bunch of mid 90s Rotels that can be bridged into 3 100 WPC outputs, which would take care of my front R/C/L setup. However, one rotel caught my eye, the Rotel RB-985 (Mark I, from around 1995). Its 5 channel (which would allow me to run a full setup) and seems to run about $250-$280, which is exactly how much I would spend on two Behringer amps to drive 4 speakers. The Behringers I am looking at put out more power, but I would be one channel short. However, I am a bit wary of buying a 20 year old amplifier -- I know eventually those large components will need replacement / maintenance. Can anyone give some thoughts on this?

Actually yeah, OMGCat! is exactly right about using your existing receiver as it does indeed have pre-outs - I probably didn't read all of your original post about what equipment you have. So yes you could take those outputs and feed them to power amps, which mostly have pretty good damping factors and that becomes less of an issue.

Given the speakers I am looking at, would you agree thats a better plan than trying to find an integrated receiver capable of delivering 100w RMS reliably, at my price point?

Far from being a determining factor in amplifier sound quality, damping factor is only one of many specifications which are very nearly irrelevant.

You will probably learn faster by trusting your ears, and paying almost no attention to specifications, at least with regard to sound quality. Some specifications tell you something meaningful, such as a turntable's wow and flutter, or a speaker's efficiency, but most specifications don't really distinguish anything of importance to sound quality.

Thanks! That is definitely the attitude I am going in with. I just want good gear that can get loud, punch hard, and last long!

See my earlier post on that Sherwood unit. This unit can handle 2 sets of speakers with an independent volume control for each set.

Regards,
Jerry

Thanks for the link, Jerry. It seems this unit runs 8 ohm speakers at 70W, and all the speakers I am looking at are designed to take double that. Do I run the risk of overloading the amp? I know that listening volume is a big factor in the answer to this question.




Tangent: For people who run amps with significant headroom over the speaker rating, is the proper setup to leave the amps set at or near their maximum, and then control the volume at the pre-amp stage? If so, is there a function that allows you to set a ceiling on the volume at a point before the speakers start taking too much power? I know that sometimes at parties, there is a temptation to keep cranking the music up, and it would be nice to know that if an overeager partygoer tries to crank up the volume, it wont exceed a certain threshold. I understand this is a niche case, and that the best course of action is not to have parties where people mess with the stereo, but I am just curious.

 

[OMGCat!]

I set my amp so that I have a good range of the volume knob (say 1/3-2/3 from low listening to loud) on the preamp.
If you're having a party where someone else may be fiddling with the volume knob you can always set the amp attenuators lower so that when the pre is all the way up it won't be overdriving the speakers.
If your amp doesn't have clipping indicators there's really no way to know if you're pushing the amps too hard aside from listening to them and noticing if they sound compressed or just bad.

I'd do a search of the model of amp you're looking at and see if anything comes up as known failure points. If it's been used lightly a 20 year old power amp should be good for a while before needing service.
As far as power amp vs. receiver, I'd go with amp. They are typically rated with all channels driven rather than one or two which is typically how AV receivers are rated. Even if you got an 80wpc x5 power amp you're likely looking at more usable power than a higher rated avr. This will make a very big difference when running bass heavy music through a bunch of speakers.