Fluance RT83/Ortofon 2M Red sibilance/distortion

[Ptm1545]

Hey guys, I could use some help.

I just received a Fluance RT83, outfitted with the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge, and an acrylic platter...this was an upgrade from an AudioTechnica LP60X I had for about a year.

I was hoping to hear some reduced distortion/sibilance coming from the LP60X, but I noticed that it sounded the same, if not worse on some records. Even on some records that sounded good on the LP60X, I noticed a very very slight level of distortion getting into the inner groves....nothing overbearing, but definitely noticeable if you're listening, and annoying. And on the records that had some IGD issues, those issues almost sound worse now.

I'm not sure what the issue could be....has anyone else come across this, and have a solution for it? I'm relatively new to all of the technicalities, but I did cut out the protractor from the Fluance manual to make sure the cart was aligned properly (it came prealigned, but I still double checked).

Is it just the cartridge itself that isn't great when it comes to IGD/sibilance?

 

[lazycat]

I have never owned one, but from what I've read many times, the Red is not a well loved cartridge, and is known for having problems with IGD, sibilance, and poor sound in general .

What he said. The easiest remedy is to buy a Blue stylus.
Brightly lit for about 25 hrs, but it settles down and produces a more even sound afterwards.

But an ATVM95 ML may well be better.

You could also try different bias settings, arms do differ in this respect.

 

[Toblerone]

Is it just the cartridge itself that isn't great when it comes to IGD/sibilance?

Something doesn't sound right here. I'm curious, is this cartridge used? If you are certain you have the cart aligned correctly... Have you examined the diamond and cantilever?

I have an Ortofon Silver stylus which I throw onto my Ortofon cartridge when I want to play used or slightly unpristine records. The Silver is basically the same as the Red. I have no issues with tracking nor IGD.

 

[Ptm1545]

I have never owned one, but from what I've read many times, the Red is not a well loved cartridge, and is known for having problems with IGD, sibilance, and poor sound in general .

What he said. The easiest remedy is to buy a Blue stylus.
Brightly lit for about 25 hrs, but it settles down and produces a more even sound afterwards.

But an ATVM95 ML may well be better.

You could also try different bias settings, arms do differ in this respect.

Bummer to hear that this is a known thing with the Red. I've noticed the overall sound has gotten a bit better after about 20 hours of use, but the IGD and sibilance is still there... and there's still an overall slight harshness to the higher frequencies.

Something doesn't sound right here. I'm curious, is this cartridge used? If you are certain you have the cart aligned correctly... Have you examined the diamond and cantilever?

I have an Ortofon Silver stylus which I throw onto my Ortofon cartridge when I want to play used or slightly unpristine records. The Silver is basically the same as the Red. I have no issues with tracking nor IGD.

Brand new, and the diamond and cantilever look fine to me. The cart came pre-aligned, and I used a print-out protractor to double check it.

Again, it's nothing utterly severe but it's definitely annoying when I was hoping to hear some of this stuff eliminated on the handful of albums I have that have IGD issues.

 

[Crab33]

There are many complaints about IGD and sibilance with the 2M Red, although I haven't experienced these issues with my example. I have a feeling it might depend on how good your example is. But it does have a bonded elliptical stylus, so it won't be among the best at tracking anyway. The upgrade to the Blue stylus (nude elliptical) might help.

As someone pointed out, if you want to avoid sibilance almost altogether, an Audio Technica cartridge with a MicroLine stylus would be the best way forward. I think the Fluance arm is quite heavy, so you'll need a cartridge with stylus of moderate-to-low compliance. The solution here would be the AT-VM95ML. You may not find it as dynamic as the 2M Red and Blue, but it should certainly be cleaner.

 

[lazycat]

I was hoping to hear some of this stuff eliminated on the handful of albums I have that have IGD issues.

It may be that these records are already damaged from a previous T/T.
A stylus which digs a bit deeper into the groove may help and avoid some of said damage.

How does it sound on other albums?

 

[cartop]

I have a Technics SL-1300 and a 2m red and I usually run my anti-skate the same as the tracking force but in order to get rid of sibilance I have to run it a little higher. I adjusted the anti-skate while playing the LP until the sibilance was gone.

 

[Grenadeslio]

without knowing if your tables arm height is adjustable I wouldn't recommend a microline stylus profile if not, they're much more finicky about proper SRA than a conical or elliptical.

even if new a stylus can be improperly mounted on the cantilever, had a new $250 cartridge arrive with the stylus at a 15 degree angle to the cantilever, it's not unheard of.

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[EWarrior]

The cart came pre-aligned, and I used a print-out protractor to double check it.

Did you use the Fluance print-out protractor? It's for a Baerwald alignment and doesn't match the alignment that is specified in the manual (which apparently is closer to Löfgren). So I guess you should have noticed that it's off?

 

[Thud3]

Try easy adjustments before spending money. As Lazycat and Cartop suggested. Also try more stylus pressure. Do you clean your records?
If these things don't help you can return to your original settings.

 

[Toblerone]

As lazycat said.. Have you tried other albums? New albums?

Have you checked if your table is level?

Further, just because it "comes factory aligned", I'd check everything. Alignment. Tracking force. Antiskate. Etc.

Also, Ewarrior's comment is of interesting note.

(Edit: I read your first post again. Have you played YOUR records on someone else's turntable? Someone who is not having distortion issues.)

 

[Ptm1545]

It may be that these records are already damaged from a previous T/T.
A stylus which digs a bit deeper into the groove may help and avoid some of said damage.

How does it sound on other albums?

Albums that sounded great on the LP60 sound great here too, but it does seem like I notice just a tiny tiny bit more IGD on albums that had issues with it.

Did you use the Fluance print-out protractor? It's for a Baerwald alignment and doesn't match the alignment that is specified in the manual (which apparently is closer to Löfgren). So I guess you should have noticed that it's off?

I used the Fluance protractor that was in the manual, weird. It looked like it was right on to me?

Try easy adjustments before spending money. As Lazycat and Cartop suggested. Also try more stylus pressure. Do you clean your records?
If these things don't help you can return to your original settings.

I do clean my records. I'll have to try increasing the tracking force and/or anti-skate.

As lazycat said.. Have you tried other albums? New albums?

Have you checked if your table is level?

Further, just because it "comes factory aligned", I'd check everything. Alignment. Tracking force. Antiskate. Etc.

Also, Ewarrior's comment is of interesting note.

Yes, the table is level. Most of the albums I'm spinning are new. I have a tracking gauge on the way to make completely sure that I set tracking force correctly, and I'm going to double check the alignment one more time.

Honestly, it seems like it could be a combination of the Red kind of being a bit harsher on high frequencies, and the fact that the albums in question do have some IGD issues to begin with....just a bummer that they're a little bit more noticeable now.

 

[Ptm1545]

without knowing if your tables arm height is adjustable I wouldn't recommend a microline stylus profile if not, they're much more finicky about proper SRA than a conical or elliptical.

even if new a stylus can be improperly mounted on the cantilever, had a new $250 cartridge arrive with the stylus at a 15 degree angle to the cantilever, it's not unheard of.

some tools I highly recommend, all in $30
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Oh really, so you wouldn't recommend the AT-VM95ML? If I do end up wanting to upgrade the cartridge, what would you recommend?

 

[EWarrior]

I used the Fluance protractor that was in the manual, weird. It looked like it was right on to me?

Maybe they do align to Baerwald (the protractor in the manual uses Baerwald/IEC null points) - but why would they specify a different overhang then? Very confusing.

Getting the VTA right shouldn't be much of an issue. As the AT cart is not as tall as the Ortofon, you can simply add a shim under the headshell.

 

[Ptm1545]

Maybe they do align to Baerwald (the protractor in the manual uses Baerwald/IEC null points) - but why would they specify a different overhang then? Very confusing.

Getting the VTA right shouldn't be much of an issue. As the AT cart is not as tall as the Ortofon, you can simply add a shim under the headshell.

I'm a little new to alignment and the different kinds of protractors too, how exactly do you know what is the proper one to use for a specific turntable?

 

[lazycat]

I'd stick to the Fluance protractor to start with. I use Baerwald with no problems - Roksan Tabriz.

It's my experience that many arms are over-biased, try about 70% of the VTF and work up. Lift the arm before each adjustment.

 

[Ptm1545]

I'd stick to the Fluance protractor to start with. I use Baerwald with no problems - Roksan Tabriz.

It's my experience that many arms are over-biased, try about 70% of the VTF and work up. Lift the arm before each adjustment.

Sounds good, thank you!

So I'm listening to a few more records and I definitely hear an improvement now from this, compared my LP60...I think there was a bit of a break-in period that I didn't take into account, as well as my ears getting used to it. Albums that didn't have IGD issues sound great.

However, the IGD/sibilance issues on albums that had them previously aren't reduced at all, so judging from everything I've read, it sounds like it's just this cartridge not being a great one for reducing IGD. I think I'm good to stick with the 2m Red for a while longer and then either upgrade to the AT-VM95ML or AT-VM540ML, which I've ready both do a great job with IGD reduction.

 

[EWarrior]

I'd stick to the Fluance protractor to start with. I use Baerwald with no problems - Roksan Tabriz.

Baerwald is generally a safe choice, too. Löfgren could be difficult for records with a narrow dead wax - especially when used with IEC's large inner groove radius.

 

[Toblerone]

Sounds good, thank you!

So I'm listening to a few more records and I definitely hear an improvement now from this, compared my LP60...I think there was a bit of a break-in period that I didn't take into account, as well as my ears getting used to it. Albums that didn't have IGD issues sound great.

However, the IGD/sibilance issues on albums that had them previously aren't reduced at all, so judging from everything I've read, it sounds like it's just this cartridge not being a great one for reducing IGD. I think I'm good to stick with the 2m Red for a while longer and then either upgrade to the AT-VM95ML or AT-VM540ML, which I've ready both do a great job with IGD reduction.

I'm glad things are improving, slightly.

Just some food for thought...

If I were you, I'd really try to play those records which you feel have distortion on someone's table who knows they have a solid setup. Just to rule that out.

If you are hearing distortion on certain records, and now you are hearing it still, on technically a nicer more detailed setup, either in more or less amounts... it could be the records buddy. Could be, not necessarily.

I've had used records gunk up carts before. I've had a used record, I'm fairly certain, which actually bent a cantilever.

A few months ago I got a New record. Gave it a quick wipe and threw it on. Terrible sounding. I inspected the record closer, there was a thin, thin residue of something on it, barely noticeable. Glue or something. I was able to clean the stylus thankfully. And I trashed the record.

Are you using the same phono pre on both tables? If so, diagnose it.

Are you using the same amp? Same speakers? Make sure you rule those out as culprits. (Most likely they aren't. But check everything.)

Are you hearing distortion in just one channel on both tables?

There are many factors to diagnose. My main concern is that you are hearing the same issue, on the same records, on two different tables.

Again, I run a few Ortofons. No IGD issues. Specifically, I run a Silver, also bonded, almost identical to the Red. Its not my best cart, but it's not bad at all. And no distortion.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Oh really, so you wouldn't recommend the AT-VM95ML? If I do end up wanting to upgrade the cartridge, what would you recommend?

so many cartridges with bonded and nude elliptical stylus, even within the AT line, plus you'll save money over the microline profiles. I prefer a nude diamond but there are plenty of great sounding bonded as well.

One of my favorite budget cartridges is bonded, Grado Reference Platinum wood body. Having it retipped with a nude stylus would be an upgrade but I bet you would have a hard time hearing any difference.