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From an old TT to a new computer, by way of an interesting preamp...how to go?

The purpose of all this isn't to circumvent direct play from TT through preamp to power amp to speakers.

Gotcha, and thanks for the clarification which makes what you are trying to accomplish even more poignant.

You're going to need that signal from your phono stage, as you said, coming out of the tape out....in analog form, to go to a recording device that will convert it to digital form and you can store it wherever you like on your computer's hard drive, or another connected storage device. The idea is to be able to control the signal coming in so that it does not distort and many devices, such as the Tascam I mentioned previously, have such a gain control which you then set based on some form of meter and as also mentioned before, try to keep it in the -3dB to -6dB range. This will then permit you to edit the one complete file of the album in the software of your choice to split it into tracks (if desired) and also remove pops and clicks (if desired). Then you will have the full album and can select which tracks you would like to hear by selecting them in the music player that you prefer to use.

In my case, I'm sometimes lazy and just want to hear some good music. That's when I go to my 96/24 recorded vinyl folders on a standalone external hard drive and choose and artist, then the album within the artist folder, and then I can even decide to hear particular songs. Would make sense that this is what your wife might really enjoy while still retaining the sound of the original music and playback very, very close to what the vinyl sounds like......I said close, and in your situation that might be truly excellent.

Hope this serves to clear things up a bit more.
 
I can't help but wonder why?

Well, for example imagine someone, who first had a pretty decent T4P turntable, that either came without a cartridge, so that he bought an adequate, pretty good one, or that already came with a pretty good stock T4P cart (like for example the EPS-310MC, that came with the SL-10, or the EPC-P205CMK3, that came with the SL-15, or the EPC-P22, that came with the SL-QL1...), and then decided to rather swap that T4P table for one with an arm with conventional halfinch-mount headshell, but wanted to keep the pretty good T4P cart.

Or image someone, who has a table with an arm with fixed headshell, so that swapping cartridges isn't so convenient, but who nevertheless likes to use different cartridges.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
@Fishead. About that Tascam dr-2d. It's interesting that on Ebay you can't buy a used one for less than $275 right now, while the models that followed after its retirement can be had new on Ebay for well less than that (now also retired, the dr-22wl for $159, and the current dr-05x for $90). People hold on to their dr-2d for some reason. Perhaps it was a particularly excellent model.
 
Perhaps, I know I'm really pleased with mine. As I said before, comparing recordings made with it and a DV-RA1000HD that a friend owns left me feeling like I made a very good choice. One thing I found odd, though, was that there is really NO information about the ADC in it. I called Tascam and after some double-talk and wondering why I was so interested in this matter, they suggested it is one made by Cirrus Logic, but that's where the conversation ended. They asked me if the reason I was trying to find out is that I was trying to "copy" their product!!! Hahaha! Anyhow, I went ahead with the purchase and am feeling pretty good about it. I sure hope you wind up with something that works for you, @dilettante.....

Just as an aside, I believe Manfred @lini made a very valid point in suggesting you might just try to run the analog signal from your tape out to the analog input of your motherboard just to see how that sounds to you. Have you tried that? If not, give it a go.....might be surprised and save yourself some $$$!

Let me tell you why I make this recommendation. I have a "B" system in my home office. When I'm in a hurry, or making some music for friends that I know won't care about the difference, I just run an analog signal out of my Sansui 9090 receiver tape-out over to my PC line input and record records that way. I then use the same (Goldwave) software to split out the tracks and clean up a few pops and clicks and typically burn that to a CD-R for them.

I had made quite a number of these recordings over time, and for this I always just record in 44/16 wave files, storing them on a rather large hard drive on my PC. I decided to use some of these for populating the Music folder library on my iPhone 12mini, ones I had not yet recorded on my main rig with the DR2D, and find that for this purpose they sound pretty dang good! Well, with road noise and the downscale system in my cars, hard to think one would be able to really discern the resolution anyhow.....but there you have it. Give it a try and let's hear what you think about it.

What software are you using/planning to use? You know you can get Audacity free, right?
 
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I do intend to try the direct-to-mobo line-in jack first mentioned by @gadget73 and seconded by @lini; yesterday I received a decent 2xRCA to stereo miniplug cable I ordered for that purpose. As you might have guessed (from something @lini asked me about earlier) the music computer is a work in progress, the mobo is clearing for RMA and I'm waiting on another one now. The HRT linestreamer and the Audioquest USB cable it comes with were so cheap that a brand new Audioquest USB cable would have cost me more than half of what I paid for the bundle. So it is not a big money commitment.

I had not understood the possible utility of a gain control and thanks for explaining that. (Some of the HRT reviewers say they don't miss the gain knob but I'm sure others do.) I'm eyeing a very good price for the Scarlet 2i2 gizmo. I think I'll also check whether the TASCAM follow-ups to the dr-2d have a good rep among the AK folk.

For software I will probably try the free Audacity first. In the online sales pitch from HRT, they say it is "[a]ble to work effectively with a variety of third-party recording software programs" but I cannot find a list on their website... which makes me wonder. We will see. The HRT is a cheap gamble to me.
 
With so many free software things floating in the net I rarely buy any software...my three exceptions are AVG Internet Security for 10 devices when it is on sale after my subscription starts waning after two years, JRiver Music Center, every new update, and Vinyl Studio Pro...I tried Audacity and the frustrations I had with it almost caused me to never investigate recording LPs any farther...until I got the PSAudio Vinyl Converter and was able to not only record in high rate PCM, but also into DSF if I wanted...

Audacity was just a bit too arcane for me with a steep learning curve, and VS just worked from the start, it is designed to do just what I required: record my vinyl with the least amount of BS possible...auto track breaks helped separate tracks, IMDB and other track lookup tagging services, the noise reduction it has is superb, and primarily I feel like I get excellent value for my hard earned money...plus it seems updates are free...

So, my vinyl digitizing solution cost me very little in comparison to the Pioneer Elite CD stable platter CD I used before that only took "music" CDs but made decent recordings (if I remember correctly it was around $1K or so)...until it died...I had to then rip those to the computer to store them on my eventual 8TBs of drives (now 16 with Synology backup)...

I remember I got the Behringer from Sweetwater on sale for around fifty bucks new and the VS was around 50 bucks, the 55" monitor is a 4K uhd TV that set me back $300, and the Lenovo small form factor computer was $288 from Amazon on sale 9 years ago...it's what I am using right now to craft this post and listen to The Jazz Groove CD quality stream...so, for hundreds less than what that Elite cost me I've had something that isn't as mono dimensional as a stand alone CD only recorder...

The computer and anything solid state or digital plus my preamp is on 24/7/365, it just never gets turned off except for maintenance (I learned that from Theta Digital over two decades ago).

The UMC202HD is connected to a dbx program route selector along with a Teac X-700R and a JVC dual well cassette deck just used for playback of the hundreds of cassettes I have from all the way back to 1977 when I got a TEAC A-150 cassette deck...I could record to them if I wanted, but just record digital today, easier storage!

One of my least used pieces of gear today is my great Philips CD-80 with a Chord Qute hooked up to it...if I want a CD I just select it from the ones burned into the computer via JRiver and play it...or set up play lists...or stream Tidal, or Qobuz, or The Jazz Groove, or Prime, etc., I can stream directly from the computer to the X-16 via USB, or through my Squeezebox Touch that passes DSF files via Ethernet...

I've been an electronic hobbyist since 1965, built my first stereo three years later, worked as an online technician at Datapoint Corp. in the early '70's, taught myself Morse code and earned an Advanced Class Ham Radio license, built (and sometimes blew up) countless electronic projects, restored antique cars for a living for a while, worked as a newspaper photographer and writer, rode some of the fastest motorcycles for their time 365 days a year, but today at 70 I can honestly say quality audio has been my most enduring hobby and something I hope to enjoy for many more years...
 
(...) People hold on to their dr-2d for some reason. Perhaps it was a particularly excellent model.

Well, what can be said about quite a few of the earlier among the very compact models, that still featured separate 3.5 mm stereo inputs for mic and line, is, that these not only often still offered better build quality, but also still were better suited to us hifi folks, due to the maximum line-in levels not being so limited. For example, if you check the specs for the DR-05X, the maximum input level for the combined mic/line-in is -4 dBV, which translates to just a tad over 0.63 V(eff.) - while the line-in of the DR-2d could still digest up to 2 V(eff.), a typical maximum output level for many modern line-level sources.


One thing I found odd, though, was that there is really NO information about the ADC in it.

The DR-2d uses two CS42L51 codecs (in combination with an extra class D amp chip by Rohm for the integrated loudspeaker), which is closely related CS42L52, which Sony chose for the PCM-M10. Seems like Tascam wanted to provide a tad more power for the integrated speaker than what would have been possible with the integrated class D amp of the CS42L52. And with two CS42L51 codecs they could offer dual recording as additional feature.


Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
The DR-2d uses two CS42L51 codecs

Guten Nachmittag, Manfred! So, please tell me where you were able to find out about that? When I was researching this stuff back in 2012 I was unable to find anything so I called them, with the above mentioned response. Somebody musta taken one apart and gotten an up close and personal view or what???

PS - Looking at my receipt I see that I, or actually my honey since it was a Christmas gift from her, paid $99.99 plus $24.99 for the power supply!
 
(...) So, please tell me where you were able to find out about that? (...)

Oh, well, Andreas, I just did, what I usually do, when I'm looking for detailed info: I googled for a service manual. Found it (or respectively two variants of it plus a separate schematic, to be exact) over on HifiEngine. And then I had a look into both service manual variants, checked the block diagrams and parts lists in these, then the schematic and finally the data sheet for the CS42L51 (as I was curious about how that woud differ from the CS42L52).

Sometimes it can take quite a while, before one can dig up a service manual for a certain audio product for free - so maybe there simply wasn't one for DR-2d available yet, when you were looking for that information.

And you (or respectively your wife) were able to grab the DR-2d for just 125 bucks (including the power supply)? Not bad. The PCM-M10 never went quite as low in price - or at least not over here, that is. Iirc, the lowest price for the PCM-M10 over here was 175 Euro (incl. 19 % VAT *sigh*) - also including the power supply, as that was part of the included accessories.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Thanks, Manfred.....I think you nailed it: those manuals were nowhere to be found because I remember doing the same thing you did, and the service manual was not out there at that time. I think perhaps the Sony unit had a few more bells and whistles that might account for a higher price point and it got very good reviews as I recall. It took the DR2D a while before folks realized just how competent it was.....me? I just got lucky I suppose. The two are remarkably similar in looks and build, save the Sony has a wheel control. Even the display is nearly identical! Have a good evening amigo.
 
Well, what can be said about quite a few of the earlier among the very compact models, that still featured separate 3.5 mm stereo inputs for mic and line, is, that these not only often still offered better build quality, but also still were better suited to us hifi folks, due to the maximum line-in levels not being so limited.

Do you know model numbers for any of those "earlier among the very compact models?" I see some possibilities here: https://tascam.com/downloads/tascam/561/tas_portable_comparison_0311.pdf. However I'm not understanding "the maximum line-in levels" matter. You said "-4 dBV, which translates to just a tad over 0.63 V(eff.) - while the line-in of the DR-2d could still digest up to 2 V(eff.)" If you would explain how that "translation" is done, or direct me to a place where I can read about it myself, I would be grateful.
 
(...) I think perhaps the Sony unit had a few more bells and whistles that might account for a higher price point and it got very good reviews as I recall. (...)

Actually, to me it would rather seem the other way around (regarding the originally intended usage as digital field recorder, that is), due to the aforementioned dual recording feature of the Tascam. But of course these dual recording modes are of little interest for us hifi folks, who are primarily interested in line-in recording in plain stereo. Pretty much the same would go for the somewhat better (= closer to noise-free) mic-ins of the Sony.

Not sure, whether the Sony also offers a higher SNR on it's line-ins, though. I.e., on paper it doesn't, but the problem with those specs is, that both (Tascam & Sony) are for line-in to line-out, while I know from a review (done by good, old Reinhard Paprotka for the German Stereoplay mag), that the Sony does quite a good bit better (than specified for line-in to line-out), when one just looks at line input to the recording medium, in which case the PCM-M10 manages to achieve the specified ADC noise level of its CS42L52. However, due to the lack of a comparative line-in to medium result for the DR-2d I can't tell, whether the Tascam does just as well in that regard.

So what might really have made the Sony more expensive (a possible "It's a Sony" premium aside ;)), might be its extra 4 GByte of internal flash memory and the software bundle, I could imagine.


You said "-4 dBV, which translates to just a tad over 0.63 V(eff.) - while the line-in of the DR-2d could still digest up to 2 V(eff.)" If you would explain how that "translation" is done, or direct me to a place where I can read about it myself, I would be grateful.

Oh, well, that pretty easy actually. Often enough foremost in the realm of prosumer audio, but sometimes also in the realm of hifi audio, levels aren't given in plain (effictive) voltages, but in dBV or dBu values - so one has to convert these, unless one already is familiar with these anyway. Reference for dBV is 1 V(eff.) - whereas for dBu it's not quite 0.775 V(eff.), the origin of this reference value being the voltage required for a power of 1 mW in combination with a 600 Ohm load.

So for example for converting -4 dBV into a plain voltage you'd calculate 10^(-4/20) *1 V(eff.) = ca. 0.631 V(eff.), for converting -4 dBu it would be 10^(-4/20) * 0.775 V(eff.) = ca. 0.489 V(eff.). So that's simply the other way around from the dB formula for voltages (i.e., dB value = 20 * log (voltage to be expressed in dB / reference voltage), with the reference voltage being 1 V for dBV or ca. 0.775 V for dBu, as already mentioned above).

Personally I typically convert such values with the Windows calculator (switched to scientific mode), so I don't forget, how to do it (in which case I typically first calculate the x/20 value and then use the inverse log function to apply the 10^ to that value, as I deem that more convenient, but that's just a personal preference...), but of course you could just as well use an online calculator for that purpose - like for example the one provided by good, old Mr. Sengpiel (rip!) over there: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Rechner-db-volt.htm

Do you know model numbers for any of those "earlier among the very compact models"? (...)

Well, from my own plus a friend's experience I'd primarily suggest to look for the Sony PCM-M10 and Roland R-05 - but if Andreas says, he's happy with the DR-2d, that's probably a good one, too.

Whereas I'm not so sure about the also earlier Olympus LS-10, LS-11 and LS-5, which also still featured a separate line-in, iirc - but I think all three had a somewhat vague line-in level spec of "-6 dBv" (= either ca. 0.5 V (in case it's a typo, and they actually meant dBV) or ca. 0.388 mV (in case they used dBv as a synonym for dBu)) and I never found any good info back then, whether that's the minimum 0-dBfs-level at maximal gain or the maximum 0-dBfs-level at minimal gain (= maximum line-in level) or someting in between or some kind of rated level. So these three, albeit otherwise also being attractive models, were out for me back then, as I wanted to make sure, that my recorder of choice would have no problem with modern sources with an output level of ca. 2 V.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
@lini. Thanks for the tutorial! That's very straightforward. I will probably will do those conversions with my Windows calculator but also in SAS. Just to make sure I can reproduce the result by a second method. And also for the references to other little recorders. Now that I have your formulas, though, I can easily interpret specifications for these devices.
 
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