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Full range speakers help please?

Xenomorph

Active Member
Hi, I have a pair of Fostex 016N17 tweeters and I'm thinking of pairing them with some Fostex FE166NV full range speakers.
The cabinets I'll be using are solid wood sealed 15x9x7", I've been told the Fostex tweeters will do well with a full range crossed over at 5k.
Can anybody advise me on whether these will be a good match please?
Thanks.
 

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After looking at this in some detail, here are some comments:

A FE166NV in 10L will just not get you much under 100Hz. Even if you run it standalone, you will likely need at least a contour notch filter (anti-shout filter) on the 166 because that's where the baffle step will begin to happen on your 10L cabinets, too.

Adding a tweeter in combination is likely to sound unbalanced (not enough lows) because that speaker will not reach very low in the sealed 10L cabinet. If you have subwoofers or something else below ~90Hz, balance will be fine and it's a good approach, IMO. The other alternatives are to (a) just run the 166 alone (w/ anti-shout filter) or (b) use corner/wall placement with a different (reflex or other backhorn) enclosure capable of elevating low-frequencies to restore balance. In that way, the minimum attenuation of the rest of the responses is possible. Otherwise, you can filter the life out of it and it will seem to go lower but you will be attenuating a great deal of the response. It is not possible to comment further w/o knowing where you will put them (relative to walls) and how far away you will listen.

Nothing says you can't do that, it's just that the 166 gets even a bit rougher (~10dB after processing out the IEC baffle and adding in yours & the sealed-box response) so it all depends on how flat you want what or alternatively, how loud. Here's that much--before any filtering at all:

unfiltered_resp_scr.png

If you add the tweeter, you will have to pad down the high-frequency response as it is more sensitive. If not L-pad, fixed resistors something like 4R series and 8R parallel (-6dB into 8 ohm) should help balance some if you are just playing with loose parts. All that is *assuming* one wants to really go after that peak-trough a little over 1kHz. If you commit to an entire crossover network instead, then the attenuation may be incorporated into the filter.

Instead of 5kHz on both, an asymmetrical crossover of say 4kHz on 166 and 6kHz on tweeter seems to work better for me in sims.

If you choose 2nd Order (or more) on the 166, you may benefit from a zobel (say ~8uF 10R), but will also likely need to reverse polarity on the tweeter.

Questions:

- for close listening or for farther away?
- do you already have the 166NV?
- do you want the tweeter inside the sealed cabinet or free to move sitting on top (& how far apart?)
- any chance you measured your tweeter impedance (or have the data elsewhere)?
- some people very much pursue very minimal filters -- is that your goal, too?

Not sure how much experience you have with fullrange drivers, but it is often found that some off-axis angle is the best compromise for balance while preserving the sound one appreciates in the driver. People seek different things. Some people find most Fostexes shouty, screechy, harsh and annoying. Others find them lively and detailed, etc. For these, the flattest axial response is not always a useful goal as filtering complexity can defeat original coherence often sought. Leaving the speaker "hot" on-axis and then listening off-axis is a common approach. Other people (close/monitor-ey) want the opposite--flat axial and forget the rest. Still others wont touch Fostex/Lowther etc and seek flatter responses from (say) Markaudio, etc.

Without real measurements with the actual driver positions, filter values become guesses--here's one as an example. Using 9in as the width (front), the tweeter 150mm up from 166NV, and splitting pwr and axial response priorities 50/50, this is a quickie filter out of XMachina:
xo_axial50_pwr50_10L_CB_fe166nv_h016n17_150mm_up_.png

You will notice that considerable output has been reduced in the process of "flattening". If that's objectionable (say low-watt tubes, etc), then another approach will be required. I also have not gone to the trouble to verify that in vcad, etc.

Honestly, anything with a whizzer is a complete crapshoot w/o real measurements--and even then final filters need to be done "by ear", IMO.

If you already have the 166NV--try it by itself with a RLC notch seriesed. If you have them laying around, you could try a parallel combination of 2mH+10ohms+1.8uF in series with (only) the FE166NV as a first guess if you want to experiment with it standalone.

Some people want tweeters just for "air" and point them backwards and cross even higher than 5k and that's good enough to allow listening further off-axis to the main driver and they just leave it screech :)

All this stuff depends on what you want to do, what's important to you, and how you want to use them (and on what program material). There are any number of approaches & speakers are nothing but tradeoffs, but those are some of the considerations. If, for example, you want max output and a simpler filter yet and just live with it, you could get some output back and reduce parts. Tradeoffs.
 
Firstly, thank you so much for the reply, I do really appreciate the work put into it.
I have pretty much zero experience in building speakers, to be honest, I thought with these 2 drivers it might be relatively simple to put them in a cabinet with a simple x-over...oh how wrong was I?

The reason for using the cabinets is that they are solid timber and heavy, and have the holes cut out. If they aren't sufficient, should I just make larger cabinets myself?

I haven't bought the 166NVs yet, they were really the first I looked at and picked as the hole in the cabinets is the same size...that's how naive I am.

The speakers would be around 8 feet apart in the middle of a wall, around 6 feet from the corners of the wall. Listening distance would be around 12 feet.

The tweeters are 8ohm (6.9 on the multimeter)

What would be a good way of incorporating these tweeters into a pair of speakers? Something relatively simple that even I could do :)

Thanks.
 
No -- I wouldn't say you were wrong. And what you referred to is exactly how many of us first added a tweeter to one of them--get some caps and an l-pad and try stuff (tm).

try_stuff.png

Fostexes can be hard to integrate because they are not so smooth and the responses rise (as is mostly typical for widerange types). The absolute last intention here is to discourage anyone from building--much the opposite. I just hate to see someone spend money and end-up disappointed in the entire concept and fullrangers are more work than most people think (at most least Fostexes are). Basically, you either filter off the top of them or use a cabinet + room boundaries to jack-up the bottom.

If you just want to build to build, that's great (and we get that)--as you know, you are among enablers, here. There are quite a few people around here who have experience with the wideband drivers so suggestions should show. Before suggesting anything (and after a quick search), I'm thinking you're in Oz (please correct)? I know sourcing things becomes heroic for you guys unless we can find local vendors for you and I'm ignorant on that.

It seems a waste to not use most of that sensitivity of the tweeters by finding a higher-sensitivity woofer, though. OTOH, maybe the tweeters are telling you that they want to live on the shelf for a while, too (I can't hear 'em from here) :) Those should be pretty nice. I think ideas will not be in short supply, it's more what sort of form-factor might work for you.

Give us a bit to think and maybe you can share how big is okay and whether making a new cab is out of the question. Also, if you are using SS amps or no-NFB tube amps. Floor ok or you want stands or...desktop or...okay to invert in ceiling corners? (gotta ask these things to do quality instigating work)
 
Hi,
yes, I'm in Australia where there is a distinct lack of businesses to buy components from!

I wouldn't mind buying different full range speakers if they would work better with the build.

I'll be using SS amps, I have a vintage Cyrus 1 that I thought may suit and I've just recapped it so it's sounding very nice now.
I'd prefer the speakers to be on stands but I wouldn't mind floor standers so bigger cabs wouldn't be a problem.
 
I wouldn't mind buying different full range speakers if they would work better with the build.
I think you'd be much better off with Fostex FF165WK drivers. They will work in a book shelf size speaker, and would benefit with help from a tweeter higher up in the frequency range, where they have a gentle roll-off. They are much smoother than the FE166 series, and don't require a giant back loaded horn enclosure to get some bass output.

jeff
 
I don't see the point in buying full range drivers only to cross them over to a tweeter without at least first trying them as full range drivers by themselves. Full range drivers have a certain magic, but, as noted, the attempt to cover as much of the audible range as possible means that the extremes are somewhat compromised. So if you intend to use a tweeter, why not buy a more conventional small woofer? It'll be cheaper and quite possibly smoother and give better bass.
I don't mean to discourage you from trying a full range driver - I use Lowther PM6s in my system, though I have subwoofers. I sometimes add a supertweeter with a simple cap crossing over in the 10k area, but I can live without it, too.
Adding reactive components to a speaker complicates the load for the amp and has real effects on the sound, both good - they enable actual full range multidriver systems - and bad - just look at all the threads about how terrible cheap capacitors (and inductors and resistors, too) are, and how you must recap with hundreds of dollars worth of capacitors to get even decent sound. I take these threads with lots of grains of salt, but they point to how much innocent looking additions to speakers can affect the sound.
 
I don't see the point in buying full range drivers only to cross them over to a tweeter without at least first trying them as full range drivers by themselves. Full range drivers have a certain magic, but, as noted, the attempt to cover as much of the audible range as possible means that the extremes are somewhat compromised. So if you intend to use a tweeter, why not buy a more conventional small woofer? It'll be cheaper and quite possibly smoother and give better bass.
I don't mean to discourage you from trying a full range driver - I use Lowther PM6s in my system, though I have subwoofers. I sometimes add a supertweeter with a simple cap crossing over in the 10k area, but I can live without it, too.
Adding reactive components to a speaker complicates the load for the amp and has real effects on the sound, both good - they enable actual full range multidriver systems - and bad - just look at all the threads about how terrible cheap capacitors (and inductors and resistors, too) are, and how you must recap with hundreds of dollars worth of capacitors to get even decent sound. I take these threads with lots of grains of salt, but they point to how much innocent looking additions to speakers can affect the sound.

To be honest, I've read that those Fostex tweeters work well crossed over at 5k and used with a full range driver. If I could use a mid woofer it would give me another option.
 
I am going to in part agree with Nat here, the whole purpose of a full range driver is not to have a crossover. Now, if you want to add a tweeter to fill in where the full range rolls off, that should be ok. is the roll off on the top end of the full range smooth?
 
I am going to in part agree with Nat here, the whole purpose of a full range driver is not to have a crossover. Now, if you want to add a tweeter to fill in where the full range rolls off, that should be ok. is the roll off on the top end of the full range smooth?

I've not decided on which full range to use, I was going to use a Fostex FE166NV, the details for it are in my op.
vinylkid58 suggested I use the Fostex FF165WK, he said they have a "gentle roll off" so that's another option I have.
 
I would just use a wideband driver like the FF165WK without a filter and use the tweeter with just a small cap to add a little sparkle.
 
@Xenomorph

Can you get Visaton drivers?
I don't have any experience with the BG20 but it is inexpensive and looks like it will get close to 70Hz -3dB
 
@Xenomorph

Can you get Visaton drivers?
I don't have any experience with the BG20 but it is inexpensive and looks like it will get close to 70Hz -3dB
The deeper your ask the full range driver to go, the more it muddy's up the midrange, IMHO. lower frequencies mean more excursion, and the cone is also acting like a wave guide for the highs, be it a coax or a whizzer cone design.
 
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The speaker world is full of compromises.
BTW didn't ask the driver to do anything, just what the numbers indicate.
 
Mouser has drivers? I had no idea. I assume it was all electrical and electronics stuff.
 
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