• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Function Generator and 50 Ohm termination

radex7

AK Member
Hey ya'll!
I have a Wavetek 130 function generator that I would like to learn use with the oscilloscope. According to the manual I need a 50 Ohm BNC termination for proper operation. I just found the BNC termination in my stash, but it is not a feed-through type. My question, is using a termination attached to BNC T-splitter going to result in the same response as feed through?

Thanks!
 
Register to hide this ad
Yes, that will work just fine. In fact, a BNC "T" is what we used in broadcasting to terminate the inputs on our portable analog video scopes, since analog video sources must be terminated in 75 ohms to be the correct level. Cable on one side of the "T" and the terminator on the other side of the "T", then the "T" is connected to the scope input.

In our case, this was used if the scope didn't have an internal termination on the input, as some video scopes do.

Dave :music:
 
OK, JURB's basic electronics is open...

You do not need the 50 ohm impedance for the generator. It will put out a fairly square wave into any impedance that does not short it out. The termination for the cable is what's needed, not for the generator.

A square wave has harmonics (hopefully) up to like the 23rd or 25th. Take a 2 mHz square wave and multiply that up. Think 2 times 25 is 50. At that frequency, the speed of light comes into play. The scope has to absorb all the electrons put out by the source on a negative pulse and and supply all the electrons sucked by the source on the positive pulse. If this is not "matched" by the impedance, they clash, or crash, within the cable causing what can be referred to as standing waves. An example of this is the SWR meter used to match a transmitting antenna like on a CB radio. That SWR stands for "Standing Wave Ratio" and when there is too much it overloads the transmitter output and can blow the final (power output) amp.

In most audio work this is not going to bother you at all. The two most useful waveforms are the 1 kHz square ave and the 1 kHz (or 400 Hz) sine wave. Used for two different purposes, but really, neither requires dealing with RF. The 23rd harmonic of 1 kHz is of course 23 kHz. This is no problem.

If you look up "poor mans tdr" on youtube there is a good video of a guy who makes a super fast rise time generator to do actual time domain reflectometry. I cannot supply the link right now because of a PC problem, damnthing has Vista and every once in a while youtube screws up my sound drivers and I have to reboot. Linux is coming soon, believe me. He built the generator out of Schmitt triggers. I think the IC has six and he turns one into an oscillator and uses all the rest of them in parallel through five 200 ohm resistors to get the correct output impedance. The scope is the 50 ohm terminator. Then he feeds it to a cable and actually measures the nano or picoseconds on the screen and derives the length of the cable from the reflection indicated on the scope. I think it was like a ¼" error and he explained that was due to the connector itself.

I looked back in my email for this, no find. There is a ten minute video that looks like it in a search, but I am not sure if that is it. Try it :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il_eju4D_TM

And my downloader isn't friggin working or I would Dropbox it.

At any rate, think of water flowing through a pipe. You want the pipe to be exactly half full, and for the output to accept the water at exactly the same rate as it is being put in the other end. As long as this is the case, the flow is nice and smooth and there are no waves. If the receiving end stops up a bit and accepts less than the exact amount the pump is putting out, there will be waves. If the receiving end dumps the water out faster than the other pump pumps it in, there will be waves. You do not want the waves. Mechanically such a situation wastes power (in electronics also) but in electronics it distorts waveforms with echoes, the combing effect and phase shift.

That is the reason for termination. To keep from making waves inside the wire.

I hope this helped at least a little toward understanding about impedance matching on a cable. I can't come up with a better "laymen's" way of explaining it right now. I really do not understand it completely myself. I do enough to use it and all that but there is a bunch opf complicated math involved that I just don't get.

For example the cable impedance. It is based on the resistivity of the conductors and their distance apart, from shield to the center wire of coaxial cable. When you have a 50 ohm source and a 50 ohm terminated destination, you must have a 50 ohm cable or it does not work right. (the pipe is the wrong size)

I was trying to align an HP 1725a a while back and it just didn't look right. I used my Wavetek 111 50 ohm output and had the HP set to terminate 50 ohms. Ringing all over the place ! WTF ! I had another look at the cable and see it is RG59U, which is 75 ohms. Those cables were bought surplus, and I imagine they were used for audio or something and the RG59 was cheap so they used it, for that one purpose. Either it was low frequency and it didn't matter or it was designed for 75 ohms but happened to use BNC connectors. If there IS an impedance involved, BNC connectors are for 50 ohms. Those cables at the back of your cable box are 75 ohms, and the connectors are made to keep that impedance as well as possible. So even if I changed the impedance of the system to 75 ohms, those connectors would throw it off a bit.

That RF is funny stuff. you can't really switch it all that well without going to a design from Mars or something. And it is part of your square wave.

But really, now that I have orated and you all owe me tuition or a bullet in the head, to answer your question - no. You do not HAVE to terminate it unless you are getting into the higher frequencies. For audio, most applications you can just cut the cord off a toaster and it will work just fine.
 
Last edited:
Thanks!

... But really, now that I have orated and you all owe me tuition or a bullet in the head, to answer your question - no. You do not HAVE to terminate it unless you are getting into the higher frequencies. For audio, most applications you can just cut the cord off a toaster and it will work just fine.

Thanks, I will read it a few times so it eventually sinks in. In the mean time I conquered (read obtained) all three type of waves forms from my generator! With and without termination!

Vista?! Sheesh!
 
Yeah Vista. I am thinking of upgrading to XP. (I **** you not)

Yeah I know that's alot. Maybe someone will chime in and make it make more sense.
 
To answer your question directly, yes the BNC T-adapter with terminator will work just fine instead of a pass-thru terminator, as others have said. And, also as others have said, for audio frequencies, you don't need the terminator at all. But, what the manual says is also correct, you "need a 50 Ohm BNC termination for proper operation." In this case, proper operation is in setting the levels. Without the terminator, your signal delivered will be 6dB higher than you program the generator for. For example, you set the generator to generate a 1V square wave. Without the terminator, it will be a 2V square wave. This is fine and nothing is hurt. I'm just trying to prevent your next thread asking why your generator puts out too much voltage. With the terminator, when you program a 1V output, you get 1V out.

.....Those cables were bought surplus, and I imagine they were used for audio or something and the RG59 was cheap so they used it, for that one purpose. Either it was low frequency and it didn't matter or it was designed for 75 ohms but happened to use BNC connectors. If there IS an impedance involved, BNC connectors are for 50 ohms. Those cables at the back of your cable box are 75 ohms, and the connectors are made to keep that impedance as well as possible. So even if I changed the impedance of the system to 75 ohms, those connectors would throw it off a bit.....

BNC connectors come in both flavors of impedance, 50 and 75 ohm, not just 50 ohm. A decent quality 75ohm cable with BNC connectors will use the proper 75ohm variety of BNCs to ensure there are no discontinuities on the line. Video, as in mrdbdigital's example, is always a 75ohm environment and studios use BNC connectors pretty much exclusively. F-connectors on the back of cable boxes are usually 75ohms, but the lowly RCA phono connector is typically around 25ohms. This is quite unfortunate for consumer grade video and digital audio cabling, but that's how it is.
 
BNC connectors come in both flavors of impedance, 50 and 75 ohm, not just 50 ohm. A decent quality 75ohm cable with BNC connectors will use the proper 75ohm variety of BNCs to ensure there are no discontinuities on the line. Video, as in mrdbdigital's example, is always a 75ohm environment and studios use BNC connectors pretty much exclusively. F-connectors on the back of cable boxes are usually 75ohms, but the lowly RCA phono connector is typically around 25ohms. This is quite unfortunate for consumer grade video and digital audio cabling, but that's how it is.

I wish I had a penny for every BNC connector I installed on all the cables I made during my broadcasting career! :D

With analog video, one could get away with using 50 ohm BNC connectors and patch panels, and most of the industry did this practice for years, even though it was not technically correct, the errors being very, very small. But with the advent of digital transmission methods over 75 ohm coax, it became extremely necessary to install the proper 75 ohm BNC's, as the signal reflections by the improper impedance cable connectors caused considerable problems with the digital signal.

One place I worked decided to "shot gun" all their 50 ohm video patch panels and replace them all with the proper 75 ohm models to ease their digital conversion. Lot's and lot's of connectors. :yes:

Dave :music:
 
Yeah Vista. I am thinking of upgrading to XP. (I **** you not)

Yeah I know that's alot. Maybe someone will chime in and make it make more sense.

Off topic for audio, but it was Vista that drove me to Apple and iMac. XP would be an upgrade but you may not want to have a web browser on that computer or at least have a separate bootable partition because the browsers may not have security updates. My 2009 iMac has reached its limit on the Safari browser and, while security has not been an issue yet, that browser no longer plays nice with some web sites. Technically, the machine can be upgraded from Snow Leopard to Mavericks or Yosemite, but the hardware is simply not quite up to the task.

Additionally, I am in the process (very long process) of copying a number of vinyl records to digital to eventually burn CDs. New Macs do not have an analog audio input and no longer have a CD/DVD player/burner. Also, Garage Band has changed to a newer version that may have problems, so I'd like to complete this task on the existing machine because I know the process works.
 
"House de Kris
Loud-n-Deep
---
is always a 75ohm environment and studios use BNC connectors pretty much exclusively. "

I stand corrected, I forgot all about that. However you probabyl should have used the word "used" instead of "use" because it is all digital now. Yup, I am sure they threw BILLIONS of dollars worth of equipment in the trash after this wonderful "upgrade" to HDTV which was the most useless thing on the planet.

Actually if you want it that's fine, but they mandated it. Free country my ass.

But yup, you are right, I was simply using the wrong cable. And I am absentminded. I had some Barco HD video projectors - IQ PRO-G350 and 500s that used RGB BNC inputs. In fact the composite was BNC, I had to rig up an adapter for it. They were built right before HDMI, and I mean I think the day before. They did have DVI.

so i assume the 75 ohm BNC connectors are a bit different than the 50 ohm ones right ? Seems logical.
 
so i assume the 75 ohm BNC connectors are a bit different than the 50 ohm ones right ? Seems logical.

Just ever so slightly. Both varieties are interchangable with the other. The only difference is the amount of dielectric between the conductors. 75ohm BNCs have little or no teflon around the center conductor, whereas 50ohm fills up the space completely with teflon. BTW, it is the area of interacting conductor material, distance between conductors, and dk of the dieletric that sets the impedance, not the resistivity of the conductors and distance as you mentioned earlier:

For example the cable impedance. It is based on the resistivity of the conductors and their distance apart, from shield to the center wire of coaxial cable.

Just couldn't resist making a political statement of sour grapes, huh?

Yup, I am sure they threw BILLIONS of dollars worth of equipment in the trash after this wonderful "upgrade" to HDTV which was the most useless thing on the planet.

Actually if you want it that's fine, but they mandated it. Free country my ass.

I doubt this is the most useless thing on the planet. I think that honor goes to most of the programming on TV, both before and after the switchover to the superior digital format. Well, if you want to keep it political, the most useless thing on the planet is the war on drugs.

"They" have been mandating things forever. Back in the prehistoric days of analog TV broadcasts, "they" mandated what frequency, how much power, and what format a broadcaster could send his signal out as. "They" dictate what words can/cannot be broadcast, and what images must be censored. "They" dictate what thoughts can be shared on the airwaves. I'm sure others felt the same way as you do now when "they" mandated the use of your precious NTSC many decades ago.

Alas, let's not digress, this thread is about terminating a 50ohm output of a signal generator for audio use.
 
Back
Top Bottom