Getting started with Thorens TD166 MKII - Tonearm / Cartridge

[KukuWalrus]

New to the forum, my name is Grant. Hello all.

Just begging to venture more into vintage audio equipment and hoping to find some guidance here.

Ive recently bought a Thorens TD166 turntable, which I am running through my Pioneer SX-828 receiver. This turntable is in very nice cosmetic condition but needing a cartridge. It came equipped with an Apature Koce MC cartridge, which I originally felt the need to replace due to not being familiar with the wear it has endured. Also, the cantilever seems to sit so low, it appears the cartridge itself is hitting the record during playback.

So for one, I would be interested in another MC cartridge recommendation for this table. Not opposed to MM cartridge since it seems like they are easier to replace opposed to MC. But from what I understand, MC may be superior. Budget is ideally around $300 but can go higher to $500 or $600 if need be. Also, if it might be more beneficial for me to get my Apature Koce retipped, I can go that route.

The only thing on the turntable itself I’m considering replacing is the tone arm. From the reading I’ve done this seems to be a common upgrade, due to the stock arm maybe being a little light. I see some people recommending the SME3009 as a suitable upgrade. If I go this route hopefully it is an easy replacement for a novice to complete. They seem to be available around $500. The one addition I love to the SME3009 is that I can pop on/ off headshells much easier to switch out cartridges, but maybe this is not necessary and is just me overthinking the process. If there is a cheaper but efficient option for this tone arm upgrade I would love to hear more.

Also, as shown in photos, I tried running an old cartridge, the Nagaoak MP-110H. Unfortunately the cantilever was pretty bent, and snapped of when I tried to adjust. This is also an option to replace.

Appreciate any tips.

Thanks

 

[KukuWalrus]

 

[sound hound]

I like the looks of the Thorens tonearm. Do you know its effective mass?

 

[ml69]

I have the same model. The tonearm detaches in the middle - I think the intention may have been to set up different carts with additional arms, but I could be wrong. The Denon HOMC DL 110 looks promising for that turntable but I'm not sure about compliance as I've never owned a Denon. Honestly I really liked the sound of my table with the Ortofon OM series cart (with a 30 or 40 stylus installed). The pair worked well.

 

[KukuWalrus]

I like the looks of the Thorens tonearm. Do you know its effective mass?

I do like the look of it as well. Honestly not familiar with the term ‘effective mass’ but will look into it. From the limited reading I’ve done, people seem to claim a heavier cartridge is recommended, if I understand correctly.. This MP-110H weighs 6.5g. Not exactly sure how heavy or light that is in comparison to others.

I figured I should replace this broken stylus either way, so I went ahead and ordered a replacement. Hopefully this will satisfy me for the time being until I can do some more research into these more expensive options.

 

[KukuWalrus]

I have the same model. The tonearm detaches in the middle - I think the intention may have been to set up different carts with additional arms, but I could be wrong. The Denon HOMC DL 110 looks promising for that turntable but I'm not sure about compliance as I've never owned a Denon. Honestly I really liked the sound of my table with the Ortofon OM series cart (with a 30 or 40 stylus installed). The pair worked well.

That would make sense regarding different arms. I’m going to do my best to put off the tone arm upgrade for now, but still interested in my options. I’ve had a few Ortofon carts in the past and always enjoyed them. I will look into the OM series.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

I have to say, that is a stunning looking turntable!


+1 DENON DL-110, now in its 6th decade of production. Lots of info here on AK if you run a search... We are DENON DL-110 users and very big fans!

Your tonearm looks to be a THORENS TP-21 with an Eff. Mass of 12.5g - which is a perfect match for the DENON DL-110.

A brand-new DENON DL-110 should cost you no more than USD $200.00. You may be tempted to spend more on some other cartridge, but you may not get more. Around the USD $200-$400 mark, in most instances, you will get less, IMHO.

Like a lot of cartridges, the baby DENON requires about 10-hours of run-in, before it comes on song. Until then, it sounds bloody mediocre. Don't give up - like I almost did! This baby is worth waiting for!

(One way to avoid the agony, is to leave the cartridge tracing a lead-out track over night... )

 

[jrtrent]

I like the looks of the Thorens tonearm. Do you know its effective mass?

I do like the look of it as well. Honestly not familiar with the term ‘effective mass’ but will look into it.

I owned the TD 146 (in 1984-1985), which was identical to the TD 166 MkII except mine had an auto-stop feature. The TP 11 MkIII arm has an effective mass of 7.5 grams. The capacitance of the wiring totals 190 pF.

If I was buying a cartridge for it today, I'd likely choose an Ortofon OM5S as I've grown partial to conical styli, but a friend of mine loves his OM5E body with a Stylus 20, Ortofon's nude elliptical for that cartridge. I don't know the input capacitance of your Pioneer, but the OM cartridge has a recommended capacitance range of 200-500 pF, which might be a help with the relatively high 190 pF already present in the turntable.

I don't know if you have all the parts, but a plastic cartridge alignment guide was included by Thorens to properly set overhang and VTA. A cartridge attaches to the arm wand using, typically, three different spacers. Spacer A has ridges that fit into slits in the headshell that prevents misalignment; spacer B helps maintain alignment using cartridges with large mounting holes; spacer C, which goes between A and B, is actually a set of 5 spacers varying in thickness from 1 to 3 mm, and you choose the one that puts the stylus tip at the height indicated on the plastic alignment guide. It was a pretty slick system that worked great. You could even adjust for azimuth by holding the wand and rotating just the headshell part.

 

[jbjsr]

I’ve owned several Thorens belt drives including the TD166. I personally would not change out the tonearm. Your arm looks to be complete and in excellent condition.

Several other members have given good advise. The Ortofon OM 20/30 or the Denon DL-110 are both very good cartridge options.

 

[twiiii]

You might want to try Ortofon's new X series. I'm a Dynavector MC fan. I guess you could start with the updated 10 X 5 with the Shabita stylus. 20 X series uses fine line styli as well as the 17D and XX-2 series.

 

[KukuWalrus]

I’ve owned several Thorens belt drives including the TD166. I personally would not change out the tonearm. Your arm looks to be complete and in excellent condition.

Several other members have given good advise. The Ortofon OM 20/30 or the Denon DL-110 are both very good cartridge options.

Thanks for the input. I’m going to take this advice and keep my tone arm.

My big question with cartridges is, how concerned do I need to be about the weight or dimensions of what I purchase? Is this really a concerning factor is it just me thinking too much into these things and/ or misunderstanding what I’m reading online?

 

[ml69]

While I was using mine I did try a number of MM carts with it, no MC carts though. No issues with any that I remember. I think you'd be safe with most cartridges in the price range you stated in your original post. I think my biggest problem was with the head shell design and the way the cart attaches. It's tightened from below and if you don't have a variety of screws/shims/etc. to accommodate your choice of cart besides what you currently have for the head shell it could be a problem. Also be aware of the height of the cart installed so your VTA is correct. Hope this helps.

 

[KukuWalrus]

While I was using mine I did try a number of MM carts with it, no MC carts though. No issues with any that I remember. I think you'd be safe with most cartridges in the price range you stated in your original post. I think my biggest problem was with the head shell design and the way the cart attaches. It's tightened from below and if you don't have a variety of screws/shims/etc. to accommodate your choice of cart besides what you currently have for the head shell it could be a problem. Also be aware of the height of the cart installed so your VTA is correct. Hope this helps.

Yes very helpful, thanks for the reply. I already had to buy a set of screws. Just one shim came with the table, I’ll buy more if need be. It is a little confusing the way the cartridge attaches but I’ve downloaded the manual and will reference that to the best of my ability. Will certainly look into correcting VTA.

 

[sound hound]

The TP 11 MkIII arm has an effective mass of 7.5 grams.

If you have this tonearm, you are in very elite low mass territory. My recommendation is to stay with vintage MM and MI cartridges which are high compliance. This includes the Ortofon OM cartridges. Just be aware that it is the stylus assembly that determines the compliance of a cartridge.

 

[enricosonic]

I have a similar deck ( a TD-145 MkII ) with the same tonearm but with the somewhat tricky TP-62 wand/headshell. I'd echo the Ortofon OM series. I never liked the aesthetic but my Super OM 30 sounded great on that deck.

Just as an aside, I ended up acquiring a Schopper arm tube which threads into the stock arm as it should, Thorens-style. Its headshell allows a typical top-mount, (screws from above) cartridge assembly. It would fit your arm as well.

 

[enricosonic]

This is Schopper's offering:

 

[KukuWalrus]

If you have this tonearm, you are in very elite low mass territory. My recommendation is to stay with vintage MM and MI cartridges which are high compliance. This includes the Ortofon OM cartridges. Just be aware that it is the stylus assembly that determines the compliance of a cartridge.

Thanks to all who have replied. This post especially has helped me. I was really lost on compliance but have a vague understanding of it now.

Since it has been recommended a few times (thanks for the detailed reply @jrtrent). I’m thinking I will go with the Ortofon OM5S as my high compliance cartridge. If I’m understand correctly, this OM5S cartridge has a detachable stylus, which I can then swap out for a higher end style such as the OM30? From what I’m seeing online the OM30 does not come mounted.

Am also curious about OM5S vs. OM5E. I will do some research into this subject later on today, as unless I’m missing something, are pretty similar high compliance cartridges.

Very grateful for all the well-thought out replies I’ve gotten. Has saved me much headache already.

 

[jbjsr]

As far as I know all the Ortofon OM bodies have the same inductance / DC resistance. The later version Super OM was tweaked slightly. Some prefer the original OM others the Super OM.

Also, both models have an add on weight in the top of the body. The weight can used or removed based on tonearm / headshell specs.

 

[KukuWalrus]

As far as I know all the Ortofon OM bodies have the same inductance / DC resistance. The later version Super OM was tweaked slightly. Some prefer the original OM others the Super OM.

Also, both models have an add on weight in the top of the body. The weight can used or removed based on tonearm / headshell specs.

Great info. I had not seen the Super series. I feel pretty good about what I’ve found so far. Did see that info on the added weight. Sounds like it would be a good fit.

I also looked into the Denon DL-110 you recommended earlier. I am interested in the MC cartridges but going to hold off for now, trying to keep it simpler for the time being. That cart has some great reviews though by the looks of it. I have it bookmarked for future reading. My pioneer SX-828 does have an MC phono input I would like to utilize if possible.

 

[captskippy]

Good morning, I too am running a similar TD 145 MK II with the lightweight tonearm. We tend to swap between the Super OM20 and Shure V15-III, both sound very good, but different. I tend to prefer the Shure sound while wife leans towards the Ortofon particularly with vocals etc. (think Eva Cassidy, Melody Gardot). Personally I do not think you could go wrong with either.