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Good place that is reasonable to rebuild old Pioneer receivers

Stevescivic

Active Member
Is there a place or person in Canada that is competent enough to properly restore/rebuild both my Pioneer SX3800 from 1981 and my Pioneer VSX-9900S from 1991?

Both units are working flawlessly including the old SX 3800. I want to be proactive in rebuilding the units but don't know where to find a good tech that actually knows what they're doing.

I'm in Calgary so local would be ideal if possible.

Thanks.
 
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No pioneer repair guys?

Well it's been a few days now and I haven't seen any responses from anyone regarding a Canadian pioneer rebuilder so I think I will try to tackle this receiver rebuild on my own. I am definitely a competent solderer and have taken parts of the amp apart to perform routine pot maintenance.

Has someone here tried to compile their own list of parts required to rebuild my old sx 3800?

I know the basic recapping process but what about the output transistors and resistors and such?

hoping that ak'ers can help walk me through this process. I am thinking that it would be wise of me to repair one board section at a time?

Thanks!
 
Hi,
I'm afraid I don't know of anyone in the Calgary area or for that matter here in Ottawa who I would trust to restore your SX-3800. I am retired and got into the hobby of rebuilding Pioneer stereo components from the mid 70's to early 80's but I do it for my own pleasure and just sell some of the finished products to increase my Pioneer collection. I have repaired an SX-3800 but haven't done a complete rebuild on one. However, I have done full restoration on my SX-1250, SX-1280 and Spec 1 and 2 systems. I do a full re-cap and in the case of the Spec 2 amp completely rebuilt the amplifier circuits including replacing transistors.
If you are handy with a soldering gun go ahead and give it a shot. I would not worry about the output transistors other than replacing the thermal paste. Stick with the re-cap. Make sure you buy some De-oxit and Faderlube to properly service the pots.
Here is a link for the service manual.
http://www.kallhovde.com/pioneer/sx-3800sm.pdf
If you have problems, just ask. There are lots of good folks here to help. When you compile your capacitor list remember the following:
CE = regular electrolytic capacitors
CEANL = low leakage capacitors (low noise)
CSZ = solid tantalum capacitors (always replace these) and values below 1uF use polyester film capacitors

I don't think there are any of the CSZ type on the SX-3800 but there are plenty of CEANL
If I remember correctly, the 3800 was fairly easy to work on. Good luck.
 
While you were looking for somebody else to do it, LOCAL, I waited to see what turned up.

Now that you are contemplating DIY territory, here I am...

If you wish, you could compile a list of the caps listed in the service manual in the format I have used for so many others and I will list the appropriate replacements from Mouser.com 's (mainly)) Nichicon line.

If you don't have a downloaded service manual, PM me an email address so I can correct that. :D

Once you have the manual, the parts list is a bit cryptic, and what I detail below has to be done anyway:
for example on the Power Amplifier assembly GWH-139 you will find under "capacitors":

CEANL 4R7M 50L C101,C102
CEANP R22M 50 C125,C126
CEA 471m 6L C133
CEA 101M 25L C134

cryptic huh?

the key:
C101,C102,C125,C126,C133,C134 are identifiers for a SPECIFIC capacitor on the schematic diagram, and pc board layout drawings.
Using them you will find (either from the schematic or LOOKING at the board) that
CEANL 4R7M 50L C101,C102 is a pair of 4.7uf 50v capacitors,
the CEANL part decodes to:
Capacitor, Electrolytic, A=radial leads (both out the bottom) , NL = low leakage special capacitor.

I would list that in the form I have used for many models here as:
GWH-139 C101 4.7uf 50v CEANL
GWH-139 C102 4.7uf 50v CEANL

now CEANP R22M 50 C125,C126 will translate out about the same:
they are a pair of 0.22uf 50v capacitors,
the CEANP part decodes to
Capacitor, Electrolytic, A=radial leads (both out the bottom) , however NP = non-polarized capacitor.
I would list that in the form I have used for many models here as:
GWH-139 C125 0.22uf 50v CEANP
GWH-139 C126 0.22uf 50v CEANP

getting a bit shorter: CEA 471m 6L C133
GWH-139 C133 470uf 6v CEA (plain vanilla cap)

and: CEA 101M 25L C134
GWH-139 C134 100uf 25v CEA (plain vanilla cap)


With that finalized list (where I supply the replacement parts numbers) then "published" here, everyone can benefit.

I have done several sx-3800's, even have one of the shelf that's waiting for the installation (final installation) of a volume control. I even have gone so far as to convert all the small lights in the push buttons (that are SO hard to get to) with LEDS...

The format is (one component per line) started with this in the service manual's parts lists:
CEANL 4R7M 50L C101,C102
CEANP R22M 50 C125,C126
CEA 471m 6L C133
CEA 101M 25L C134

and ended up with:

GWH-139 C101 4.7uf 50v CEANL
GWH-139 C102 4.7uf 50v CEANL
GWH-139 C125 0.22uf 50v CEANP
GWH-139 C126 0.22uf 50v CEANP
GWH-139 C133 470uf 6v CEA
GWH-139 C134 100uf 25v CEA

after which I ADDED the parts numbers of the replacement capacitors, as well as the replacement's value and voltage:
GWH-139 C101 4.7uf 50v CEANL 4.7uf 63v 647-UKL1J4R7MDD ( 50 to 63 deliberate - closest available, 50 was on order)
GWH-139 C102 4.7uf 50v CEANL 4.7uf 63v 647-UKL1J4R7MDD
GWH-139 C125 0.22uf 50v CEANP 0.22uf 50v 598-DSF050J224
GWH-139 C126 0.22uf 50v CEANP 0.22uf 50v 598-DSF050J224
GWH-139 C133 470uf 6v CEA 470uf 16v 647-UPW1C471MPD (no typo, 16 is deliberate)
GWH-139 C134 100uf 25v CEA 100uf 35v 647-UPW1V101MPD (same here, deliberately from 25 to 35)


These are the types of capacitors in the parts list that are part of a recap:
CEA, Capacitor Electrolytic (A) radial
CEB, Capacitor Electrolytic (B) axial leads (counter-intuitive huh?? a "B" for AXIAL???)
.......Both CEA and CEB can have NL or NP following to make it special...
CSSA, Capacitor Solid Aluminum (A) radial
CSZA Capacitor Solid Tantalum (A) radial

sometimes they may use a triple letter, triple number code for something NOT in their usual nomenclature
like ack-035 - the finned tuning capacitor. but SOMETIMES it can be an electrolytic cap that needs replacement, so include them and I will check...

AS A BONUS with my doing this, besides ending up with a spreadsheet of this, I also generate a Bill Of Materials entry block of the parts numbers to be ordered, sparing YOU the need to type in dozens of alphabet soup entries, instead you copy and paste a block of text into Mousers BOM entry feature (free registration needed). like this:


647-UKL1J4R7MDD
647-UKL1J4R7MDD
598-DSF050J224
598-DSF050J224
647-UPW1C471MPD
647-UPW1V101MPD

although I admit this would work, but changes are more problematic:

647-UKL1J4R7MDD|2
598-DSF050J224|2
647-UPW1C471MPD
647-UPW1V101MPD
 
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Finally!

FINALLY markthefixer has chimed in!

I knew you were the Pioneer expert so I thought to myself why you have not chimed in but I'm glad you did.

I will go through that service manual with a fine tooth comb so that I clearly understand what I'm doing. I was working on some old PCB's and didn't even realize how decently I could solder (yes its been that long!).

I will chime in again when I figure out everything.

I was thinking of starting on the power supply section of the amplifier first as that is typically where the failures begin no?
 
So in everyone's past experiences rebuilding old pioneer receivers how often do resistors and transistors go bad and how do you all verify the failures? I know caps are a service item but what about the aforementioned components? The sx 3800 as an example was only used for about 15 years before it was packed up into storage until now and even though I have cleaned the pots with a contact cleaner I fond the bass on this uni lacking. Not sure how to describe it but it's just not what I expected. A sign I think of bad caps - did read somewhere that the sx 3800 wasn't very good for bass so i am not sure what to say about that.

Everything on this beast is otherwise in mint condition. Anyone here suggest a good circuit board washing solution? My grandfather used to smoke like a chimney in his house so I am sure there is a very fine layer of tobacco residue on the boards. I know the unit itself was a bit dirty until I cleaned it all up. Since I will be reworking everything I figured I might as well use a residue free solvent (flux remover?) to clean I all up prior to reinstallation.

Thanks
 
Finally? maybe after a week.... :dunno:

the few resistor failures are usually obvious - soot - carbonization etc , and there are some that are engineered to blow up during a fault to "break the chain of destruction"

There are some resistors I routinely replace because I am an obsessive esso bee and their low ohmage value (1 to 4 ohms usually) and their position (power supply feed lines) makes them vulnerable - plus I'm in there already and they are cheaper than reopening the unit if they fail with fresh capacitors etc...

transistors that have been cooked/overtemperatured (but still work) change color subtly.

contact cleaner = CLEAN corrosion
deoxit = LOOSENED corrosion that operating friction can scrub away to get to clean metal and a good contact...
this also: contact cleaner THEN 100 % deoxit.. D-5 deoxit is 95 % cleaner and 5 % deoxit. The deoxit NEEDS to get at the corrosion, and the other gunk protects the corrosion.

lots of cleaning theories in the other threads. but remember there are two different issues: grunge with the components and flux on the solder side. both require different attacks..

I don't go nuts on internal appearance - but I do clean up the flux - with - CAREFUL!!! - acetone.... don't blow yourself up!!! others swear by anhydrous isopropyl alcohol (99 % not the 70 % rubbing alcohol)
topside - simple green....
 
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lol sorry Mark, I'm just used to threads where ppl literally reply within minutes of my posts so waiting a week for me is like waiting for a lifetime :)

So I'm starting to look over the power amplifier section and it appears that there are some caps that have some designations that aren't in your key such as COMA (or is it CQMA?) and such.

How do I know precisely which caps I should replace vs. those that can stay? Resistors in the power feed circuits? Mine don't appear to be browned or carbonized but then again if you're suggesting that they can/should be replaced then I guess why not?

Also what are your thoughts on recapping everthing? I have seen some people not do the phono/tuner sections of their amps but isn't that somewhat counterintuitive to a rebuild? I would imagine that it would make the most sense to do everything but then again I'm new to all of this..


If my memory serves me right I only need to replace the electrolytic caps and not the ceramic ones (which are far and few anyways).

I'm listening to the amplifier right now and it sounds reasonably good with with my Energy RC 70s but the bass is definitely lacking and my highs are a bit sharp compared to my Pioneer's VSX 9900S which has the exact set of speakers.



Also do most of you Pioneer fans make use of the Nichicon caps? I remember hearing that black gate caps are the industry's best made cap but that could've been just someone preferring them over others.
 
Monday morning to Thursday afternoon isn't THAT bad... :D

If it isn't mentioned, it isn't electrolytic - that's why I wanted the ZZZ-999 numbers, to weed out anything that wasn't specified as NOT electrolytic...

There is a thread called Pioneer Tuning Fork wayy back that has the definitions for those other type in it, it's a long thread, with a lot of downloads to sift through. Pioneer service put it out as the "reference standard" so that everyone understood the gobbldygook.

a Tuning Fork is a frequency standard to get everybody on the same pitch. These are the technical equivalent. LOTS of basic electronics information in there TOO.

Find 'em, READ 'em, understand what they meant.... :smoke:


as for your parts list, get the originals in and ready as I asked, and that will give me a tremendous head start on the list, and in the spirit of one hand washing the other, I will ADD the resistors, transistors etc that I consider appropriate to the list. the few extra $$ for those parts will be minimal.

Some day I will do another 3800, and THAT will be the list I use, right now at times I just look at the parts & schematic and pull the replacements from my stock, tossing the originals in a bag for accounting for later - thus I don't get the board number or Cap position associated with the part. or other parts onto the list.
 
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Great I will do that when I have chance. Perhaps Sunday afternoon will be my day to get the bulk of the info I need.

Mark do you (or anyone else on the AK forum) have a service manual for the 9900s that I mentioned in my thread? It's 20 years old but a sweet receiver that I want to keep alive for another 20-30 years.

thanks!
 
Great I will do that when I have chance. Perhaps Sunday afternoon will be my day to get the bulk of the info I need.

Mark do you (or anyone else on the AK forum) have a service manual for the 9900s that I mentioned in my thread? It's 20 years old but a sweet receiver that I want to keep alive for another 20-30 years.

thanks!

Not really, that's a HUGE manual. The Pioneer VSX-9900S from 1991.

www.stereomanuals.com lists the vsx-9900S as a referral to the vsx-95 manual.
In other words they SELL an excellent reproduction of the original.

It's supposed to cover the VSX-95, VSX-9900S, VSX-D902S, VSX-D901S.

It's a G25 price code ($42.00) for

214 total pages (92 intentionally blank) including (21) 11in x 17in inserts consisting of several very small supplemental manuals which all reference to the main VSX-95. The original manual consists of a large number of multiple-page pullouts and fold out, fold up poster-style pages. We reproduce it as (approximately 90%) 11in x 17in folded /trimmed overlapping pullout pages, card stock covers, neatly assembled with 5 heavy-duty staples and fiber reinforced taped spine, plus (21) 11in x 17in single-side printed 11in x 17in inserts. Models covered: VSX-95, VSX-9900S, VSX-D902S, VSX-D901S. Overall quality is Very Good to Excellent.

No affiliation, just a satisfied customer.

for example - there are SX-D7000 PDF manuals out there, but they are missing stuff... I BOUGHT his sx-D7000 reproduction and NOW have ALL the information I needed. It is EXCELLENT quality.
 
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Good luck Stevescivic. As far as the 3800 "lacking bass"... hmmm, I wouldn't be too sure of that statement. I re-worked a 3900 (the big brother) a while back and it was a lot of fun. Consumed my every free moment for several months, but with Markthefixer's intense and extremely knowledgeable assistance, it got done and got done right. Look back on a thread I have on ak for that re-build. I replaced EVERY cap in that thing and all output transistors, in addition to a number of other parts along the way. Your power supply board might need the most attention, but that is merely speculation on my part. Rebuilding that board would not be a bad idea. Please post some photos of it. I love my 3900 and will own it until I will it over to one of my kids one day.
 
Also, I second the fact of what Mark said about the resistors. They usually are found dead for two reasons.... heat from an adjacent component, or heat from needing to fail to protect things down the line (safety).

EDIT: You might wanna think about starting a new thread with a new title so others can chime in if needed. Now that you are switching gears from looking for others to do it, to you doing the work yourself.
 
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what tolerance of capacitors am I supposed to use?

at mouser.com they have tolerances:

-10%, 50%
-10%, 75%
10%
20%

thanks.
 
I'm no expert, but I say the tighter the better. But certain applications may be just fine with wider tolerances. If price is negligible, then go with tighter tolerance caps. I'm pretty sure that in the late 70's early 80's the caps were looser than todays standards. But I could be wrong on that as well. I defer...
 
A knowledgeable guy in Illinois helping a brother in Calgary.


Watching and enjoying. :D

Love me some AK.
 
what tolerance of capacitors am I supposed to use?

at mouser.com they have tolerances:

-10%, 50%
-10%, 75%
10%
20%

thanks.

don't sweat the tolerances, I will.

Learn by example - from the list I will generate.

I suggested reading the tuning fork stuff, your answers are IN there.

since nobody has chimed in about them, i took the time to FIND them again:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=249745

page 1 caps, then coils and caps on page 3 then page 4 new resistors and caps
 
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"Lead a horse to water, he will drink. Leave a bread crumb trail to water and the horse will find it and drink more."

Isn't that the way the saying goes?

EDIT: Just kidding...
 
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