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HAFLER AMPLIFER UPGRADE KIT

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when does an original amp become something else?
we spent a bit of money getting a Hafler, and then we spend pretty much the same amount (if not more) changing the core internals to something else.
This is now no longer a Hafler, and its cost you more than double to have something else.
Its the same story with the PL and WOPL...I guess its no longer a PL.
anyways, I dont have a problem with these upgrades, as I am sure they sound much better.. but I guess the cost involved, maybe better spent elsewhere (like not getting a hafler in the first place and buying something that is better)??
any thoughts (musing as usual :)?
 
ants2au said:
when does an original amp become something else?
we spent a bit of money getting a Hafler, and then we spend pretty much the same amount (if not more) changing the core internals to something else.
This is now no longer a Hafler, and its cost you more than double to have something else.
Its the same story with the PL and WOPL...I guess its no longer a PL.
anyways, I dont have a problem with these upgrades, as I am sure they sound much better.. but I guess the cost involved, maybe better spent elsewhere (like not getting a hafler in the first place and buying something that is better)??
any thoughts (musing as usual :)?
Click to expand...


Just like taking my old Buick and transplanting a modern Chevy LS engine in it, why do we do these things? Cuz we can I guess. :rockon:
 
That kind boost in power, New electronics, Go for it. The guy knows what he's doing. Bet that thing sounds clean and smooth.
 
IMHO, after considering the cost of such huge upgrades, one enters another price point where there are many more choices. The thing that concerns me is that resale on modded amps is typically much lower than one would think and you'll probably never recover your investment should you decide to upgrade again. Major modders like AVA and MC occasionally sell used equipment and at a much higher price point than the usual used online sellers but they do include a checkup/tune-up, some warranty, and so inspire more confidence.

That said, my older AVA-upgraded Hafler XL-280 is my best sounding amp, and to my ears sounds much better than my B&K EX-442, Acurus and other similar amps. I'm grateful to have found it rather inexpensively on CL (nay, a scroe!) because they don't come up for sale very often. Based on my budgetary constraints I wouldn't be dropping $600-1000 or more into an existing amp without checking the options first. But YMMV.
 
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Any "vintage" amp will eventually need a restore to perform reliably up to spec. If you're not into vintage and making repairs, you should buy new. I like the Dynaco 400 series and Hafler amps for the price/ performance ratio. I can pick up a clean ST-400 for $300 or so, sink another $300 in to replace all the components and I have an amp that performs better than new and has the styling and sound I like.
If I went for another, more expensive model, I'd still have to invest the rework money for a subjectively "better" sound. To each their own. I've found old stuff to be just that.....old stuff. Besides, it's fun to fix these old clunkers up and very rewarding to know that I've actually taken a hunk of junk and turned it into a jewel.
Jim
 
ants2au said:
when does an original amp become something else?
... This is now no longer a Hafler,...not getting a hafler in the first place and buying something that is better)?
Click to expand...

I think the notion of original-ness or lack thereof is a different point entirely. Valid, but different.

I think it's quite common that people have gear that's long since paid off, sitting unused, too good to throw away, not valuable enough to sell, isn't as interesting or special as it once was, and it may not work and need repairs anyway.

And if there's a clear and well traveled path to upgrades and improvements, it can be an attractive option compared to an original parts and spec restoration.
 
Well, maybe you guys should ask Sirianni(above) what he now thinks of his PC-1 & Power Supply upgraded Mono P-500's. His first reaction was WOW! This seems to be the common reaction. It was mine too. Ed's PC-1 design is brilliant. The sound would make David Hafler himself jealous. Ed at QUA-CO spent more than 20 yrs. as Hafler's amplifier project manager and has spent many years developing his own driver boards. The original driver boards had instability(oscillation) issues that were often 'band-aided' by tacking random filter caps onto the boards. Ed made sure that the PC-1's do not have these issues. Output MOSFET's are very unforgiving of unstable driver boards. Yes, your old Hafler will no longer be a Hafler, but the result is simply amazing.
 
Slightly off topic, but to sing the praises of Hafler Gear

I bought a 945 Pre-Tuner and matching 9180 Amp 25 some years ago. The Amp has been sitting idle for close to 20 years.
Over the weekend, I dropped it into my main rig in place of my Counterpoint NPS400 and seem to have proved that the Pre Amp (VAC CLA1 MKII in this case) is the more important part of the chain OR these old Hafler Amps are way better than the credit they were given over the years. I cannot believe the sound I am getting from this 25 y/o $600 Amp.
 
jsettecase said:
Well, maybe you guys should ask Sirianni(above) what he now thinks of his PC-1 & Power Supply upgraded Mono P-500's. His first reaction was WOW! This seems to be the common reaction. It was mine too. Ed's PC-1 design is brilliant. The sound would make David Hafler himself jealous. Ed at QUA-CO spent more than 20 yrs. as Hafler's amplifier project manager and has spent many years developing his own driver boards. The original driver boards had instability(oscillation) issues that were often 'band-aided' by tacking random filter caps onto the boards. Ed made sure that the PC-1's do not have these issues. Output MOSFET's are very unforgiving of unstable driver boards. Yes, your old Hafler will no longer be a Hafler, but the result is simply amazing.
Click to expand...

I guess the question is, again, when does it transition from fixing to improving to redefining, when does it become something else?
 
It becomes something else when you use a different circuit design. Other than that it is an upgraded/modded original design.
 
Hyfi, You are correct on both accounts. Its the old 'garbage in; garbage out' theory. Better preamps, sources and source material will always improve things. The original Hafler sound is quite good and loved by many. Feed it a really good signal and you will see what its capable of. The same is true for any amp and/or speakers.
 
keeping old units as is doesn't cut it - things explode, short, burn, open circuit. upgrading
old unit is a great idea.

for those who follow the insane numbers matching holy grail cars, would you race a car
on its original 1985 tires?

similarly, if you unsolder a resistor, reverse it, and solder it back in, does that make a
difference. Can you hear it? does it drop the re-sale value?

entropy.
Zen
 
Bob said:
keeping old units as is doesn't cut it - things explode, short, burn, open circuit. upgrading old unit is a great idea.

does it drop the re-sale value?

entropy.
Zen
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I have seen what a Lg. PS Filter cap does when it explodes in these old amps- looks like someone took a welder to the inside of the case! It could possible damage other components when it fails as well. Hafler's stock amps are still great sounding, high current amps and will drive even the most complex of loads.

It does 'become something else' when the stock driver boards are removed and replaced with something else. If one wants to keep with the "Hafler-ness" of their amp, basic upgrading of the PS & the driver board caps does wonders and will make your amp sound 'better than new'. The clarity and dynamics are much better. Many of these develop a DC Offset problem(DC at the speaker Outputs) that cannot be adjusted out due to some of the versions of stock driver boards not having a Pot for this. This is because the matching of the front-end transistors have begun to fail/drift from their original spec. Replacing the front end transistors with a new, matched set brings the amp back into spec and also reduces distortion and residual noise(hiss).

As for resale, sadly, many of the well-known upgraded amps, from Musical Concepts & Van Alstine, often sell for much less than the owner paid to get it to that point -if- sold to an unknowledgeable buyer, but if marketed to savvy audiophiles, they can fetch a pretty decent price. I would expect that the owners of these upgraded amps usually have no intention on ever selling and plan of keeping it for the next 30 yrs.. My upgraded amps will be with me until I leave this great Earth.
 
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So I did pull the trigger on this upgrade, changed out the power supplies as well, I will do a review down the road, but all I can say at this point is it was money well spent, hearing things through my DQ-10's I have never heard.Very Happy.
 
sirianni said:
So I did pull the trigger on this upgrade, changed out the power supplies as well, I will do a review down the road, but all I can say at this point is it was money well spent, hearing things through my DQ-10's I have never heard.Very Happy.
Click to expand...

So... Replaced that 80uf yet?
;)
 
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