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Hafler DH500 - Solid vs Sranded wire

A

Adlpc

Seeker
Hypothesis: Solid wire sounds clearer than Stranded wire. Completely replacing the power supply and Signal out wiring with 12 AWG solid wire (Signal-in replacing with 18 AWD Coax). WHY? Read on -

I have several power amps (and high power receivers) which have undergone extensive A-B testing in my system, and after messing around with solid and stranded speaker wire and interconnects, it seems that solid wire in my system (at least to my wife's and my ears) increases the overall sonic clarity.

This is not to rehash the Solid vs Stranded wire debate or throw personal opinions around. To determine this for myself, I decided to rewire my DH500 with 12 AWG solid as mentioned above as a first step to my DH500's rebuild. Yes it is quite a bit heavier than the 18 AWG stranded that was used, so it should make a difference just due to the heavier gauge alone.

This amp was compared extensively and exhaustivly (prior to rewiring) with the following Power amps (and a receiver power amp section):
Carver AV-705x (two channels driven)
Counterpoint SA100
Technics SE-A5
Sumo Andromeda
Sumo Andromeda II
Pioneer SX-1980 (Power amp section only)

Using the following speakers:
Yamaha NS1000M
Magnepan MGIIIa (heavily modified frams and X-over)
A home made pair with true 360 degree dispersion

I do plan to continue the upgrade with capacitor replacements later. Just wanted to do the rewiring and see if there was any audible change before I took the next step. Am also changing the binding posts with heavy duty gold plated ones and input RCA connectors with higher quality gold plated ones.

Hope this is interesting for some and you will have some suggestions for me.

Thanks!
 
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Yours is the first sensible application of alternative cabling I've seen. Agreed, the wiring inside the amp and preamp must be changed to the same alternative wire in order to gain the full sonic changes of boutique cables. This includes wires inside the speaker. This important application at the wire websites is rarely if ever mentioned. The missive about short wire runs inside amps as a reason for leaving it original is bull.
 
Thanks SoCal Sam. That is my plan (update speaker wiring) IF I hear differences in the pre and post comparisons of this mod. If I don't hear differences it might not be worth while.

I should have explained that I am not using 'boutique' cables or wires. Just solid instead of stranded. With the speakers I have, I find it very easy to hear differences both good and bad. I was very much in the 'amplifiers all sound the same' league when I got my NS1000Ms. Not sure if they present a difficult load and that is what makes the amps sound so different or that the amps themselves sound different no matter what the load effects but when similar acoustic tendencies presented themselves with all three of my very different 'load' speakers respective to the amps, I had to readdress my hypotheses.

This experiment is another one, and hopefully one with no long term detrimental effects.

BTW, where in SoCal? and are you attending T.H.E. show?
 
Welcome from another OC SoCal member! Interesting topic and wondered what you outcomes might be like.

Ever consider using silver plated copper wire, usually stranded?
 
Boutique cable is not the right term for what you have done. Boutique cable sales involve a certain amount of mysticism in order to convince the buyer that a few dollars of copper is really worth a thousand dollars.

Ah, NS-1000M's. My favorite speaker. True, they are so transparent as to challenge amplifier performance. Great amps sound even better and the marginal get revealed for what they are. The NS-1000M will respond to the smallest tweaks so I understand your quest with solid cables. I've gotten positive results by simply tinning the ends of stranded wire.
 
Thanks Mech986, and yes, but I have not measured or heard any difference. Silver is only a little more conductive than copper. I'm finding that to my ears solid wire seems to give better focus and clarity in my particular application, and I'm rewiring the amp to see if there is any comparative change with respect to my other amps to further investigate what I am hearing.

Sam, It was the ability of the NS-1000Ms to display the differences in my amps more vividly that gave me my 'Ah-Ha!' moment. I could distinctly tell which amp was playing by sound alone (on a familiar piece of music, of course). I tried tinning the ends of stranded wires and could still tell the difference between the stranded and solid.

I'm close to finishing the rewire and will start my listening tests in the next few days. The 12 awg solid wire is difficult to work with in some configurations and possibly even easier in others since it likes to keep its shape. Hope thefragger's concerns are not realized!
 
After playing around with my Marantz 2220B and trying/listening to 7 different cable types in different locations I came to the following conclusions. If the manufacturer used solid cable in one location that is what I used, if stranded was used in a certain location that is what I used. To my ears it always sounded better this way. So if I tries all solid, or all stranded it tended to be a compromise.

What I ended up with for stranded was Kimber TCSS
and for solid Legenburg....neither is what I would call terribly expensive or boutique.

The above is just my opionion I am sure there are many many options this is just what I ended up with.

As an example from switching to speaker outputs got solid.
Amp Board to main filters got stranded.

Again my opinions YMMV.
 
Rewiring complete! and all testing shows it to be working normally. Now for the listening tests....... Ahhh! My favourite part! (As if I needed an excuse!) Will take a few days to possibly a week to do all the comparisons and will report my findings.

Patfont, Thanks for your thoughts. I went all solid and largest gauge (12) except for the input which is now 18 AWG solid (shielded). Hafler made my DH500 with 18 AWG stranded throughout (power supply and all) probably for cost and ease. I found while messing around with my audio cables (both speaker and interconnects) that in my system and to my ears solid wire sounded considerably clearer (as in improved clarity). This is an experiment to see how far that goes. I have extensively compared the pre-rewire DH500 to my other amps, so now I will compare the post-rewire version. At least a semblance of an A-B comparison.

BTW, T.H.E. Show was quite good. Not sure why but many had their systems with the bass boosted, some to idiotic levels. We had live music to compare it to in the evenings. Overall, some amazing sounds!
 
Initial testing results of my comparative listening tests -

Highs: increase in clarity
Mids: slight increase in clarity
Bass: significant increase in clarity

Although an already quiet amplifier (except for the fan noise) it seems to be even more quiet now, or the dynamics have also improved.

Pre and post scores:
Pre Post
Highs: 5 7
Mids: 6 7
Bass: 4 8

These are relative numbers (from 0-10) when compared to my other amps.
Although I wasn't sure what to expect, I wasn't expecting much change. I was very surprised at some of the sounds I heard with the Hafler compared to before. To my ears a significant improvement.

List of changes/replaced items:

- All power supply wires in, and to the main caps and amp boards = 12 AWG solid
- Both left/right input from RCA to amp boards = 18 AWG solid coax
- All amp board out to relay and speaker out = 12 AWG solid
- Speaker out binding posts = new clear plastic, heavy duty, 8 AWG compatible
- Power in = IEC socket

Again, the observed changes in sound were in my system and to my ears. I am very happy with what I am hearing and feel it was a worthwhile endeavour. 12 AWG solid was difficult to work with until I learned to form it into the final shape, put in place and solder. It became much easier as I went along.

This was to be the first of three phases as I completely rebuild and upgrade to a new case with no fan/much larger heatsinks, separated R/L to each side of chassis, cap replacement (ELNA Silmics), solid state relays, etc. Thinking that it might not be neccessary now since I am very happy with its current performance.

Basically still sounds like my Hafler but with improved clarity as described above.

Thanks for listening!
 
Your subjective impressions are credible because of the wire changes. Proof will be to get another DH500, and restore both to the same electronic condition. Then conduct a double blind test with yourself and a couple of non-audiophiles.
 
Agreed Sam, but in liue of another DH500 which I sadly don't have, it was compared to 4 different amps (A-B with each one) with a variety of music to determine the observations in as neutral a way as possible. And as you said they are all subjective, to my ears and in my system. I am a scientist and an engineer and I do get very finicky about experimental methods.

Happy to say that throughout, my method of scoring the amps came up with only one digit change amongst all of them while the Hafler had significant score changes. My very patient and accomodating wife was my control and I tried as best I could to create a double blind approach. Not completely successful as on two occasions she noticed where the speaker cables were going. Her results and mine were very close and followed a similar pattern to our previous testing.

I am not trying to prove anything, just sharing my observations from my little experiment and hoping it might somehow be of benefit to someone.

Thanks
 
SoCal Sam said:
Your subjective impressions are credible because of the wire changes. Proof will be to get another DH500, and restore both to the same electronic condition. Then conduct a double blind test with yourself and a couple of non-audiophiles.
Click to expand...

Adlpc said:
Agreed Sam, but in liue of another DH500 which I sadly don't have, it was compared to 4 different amps (A-B with each one) with a variety of music to determine the observations in as neutral a way as possible. And as you said they are all subjective, to my ears and in my system. I am a scientist and an engineer and I do get very finicky about experimental methods.

Happy to say that throughout, my method of scoring the amps came up with only one digit change amongst all of them while the Hafler had significant score changes. My very patient and accomodating wife was my control and I tried as best I could to create a double blind approach. Not completely successful as on two occasions she noticed where the speaker cables were going. Her results and mine were very close and followed a similar pattern to our previous testing.

I am not trying to prove anything, just sharing my observations from my little experiment and hoping it might somehow be of benefit to someone.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Hi Adlpc,

Nice work, obviously a labor of love since its hard to work with wire that thick as you found out. Interesting results you have there and am interested to see what happens next.

If you would like, I've got a rackmount Haler 500 that I got from a studio, had worked for me in a mobile church sound system, and has been retired back to home. I haven't hooked it up for awhile so I could check to see if its working correctly and then see what it generally sounds like compared to some Yamaha pro amps I have. I don't recall if it was kit built or assembled, but it has been unmolested except for a cleaning since I've had it.

I could loan this amp out to you for comparison use and then you could see if it sounds like yours did, and whether it may respond to similar changes. I'm in La Habra, what part of the OC are you in?
 
Adlpc said:
Agreed Sam, but in liue of another DH500 which I sadly don't have, it was compared to 4 different amps (A-B with each one) with a variety of music to determine the observations in as neutral a way as possible. And as you said they are all subjective, to my ears and in my system. I am a scientist and an engineer and I do get very finicky about experimental methods.

Happy to say that throughout, my method of scoring the amps came up with only one digit change amongst all of them while the Hafler had significant score changes. My very patient and accomodating wife was my control and I tried as best I could to create a double blind approach. Not completely successful as on two occasions she noticed where the speaker cables were going. Her results and mine were very close and followed a similar pattern to our previous testing.

I am not trying to prove anything, just sharing my observations from my little experiment and hoping it might somehow be of benefit to someone.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I suspect the changes you are hearing will show up during a sweep on your 'scope. By changing the internal wiring to something more substantial, you are optimizing power delivery. This should result in better objective accuracy which can be heard as sharper sound with more forward harmonics.

I'm also guessing this will not be your only wire mod. For you next amp, record the square wave traces for 20 Hz, 1 kHz, and 20 kHz before and after. This way, there will be some science behind your review.
 
Sorry it took so long to get back!

Mech, Thanks for the encouragement and the offer. I am in Lake Forest (El Toro) just south of Irvine. A comparison to mine and just to hear how it sounds would be great. I also like the Yamahas. Have a Yamaha MX-1000U that I've been planning to fix. Let me know your thoughts.

Sam, you guessed right! Was thinking about rewiring my Andromeda II. And, loud 'smack' (per 'coulda had a V8' forehead smack)...YES, I should have thought about a REAL test, not just my ears. I have an oscilloscope and I could have compared output square wave vs input, before and after. Guess I was too focused on the what it would sound like to think of it. Will do that on my Andromeda II when I can get to rewiring it. Might be worth a check of my amps as they are now. Need a good frequency adjustable square wave source.

The Hafler still sounds like it did, just clearer in the highs and extreme lows. I'm still comparing the amps. Thinking of triamping my MGIIIa and want the best amp for each range.

Thanks for the great ideas!
 
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