Harbeth SHL-5 incoming.
- Thread starter JohnVF
- Start date
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Good question for Alan at the Harbeth User Group.
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Alan uses his daughter's voice.
charles 1973
Super Member
I would guess most speakers including the Harbeth offering's are voiced with, or at least tested with 3 or more Amps with different sounds. Perhaps a Tube Amp, A highly transparent SS Amp, and a more middle of the road (but still high quality) SS amp. A speaker that only works well with one type of amp would reduce your market, and get nasty reviews from both the public and the press if it didn't work well with some popular amps. I talked to the people at Reference 3A before I bought my Veena II Speakers and they said they use different Amps, including one of the Bryston offering's which I use. I'm guessing different genres of music as well, on less they have a specific Market.
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It's rather likely that if he asked it, he'd get a rather condescending onslaught of answers over there for thinking that it mattered what amp was being used. Maybe not from Shaw but from one of the moderators over there. They can't seem to get it through their own ears that "working" and "preference" are different things, as it doesn't seem to occur to them that the subtle (or not so subtle) differences between amps could mean anything to anybody, since they don't mean anything to themselves.
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Perhaps but you don't know unless you ask, and that is likely the only source for the answer.
trhee
ㅇtㅈyㅅr
Alan Shaw's response to what amps he uses:
"What amplifier does the designer use?"
To cancel misinformation attributed to this subject, here is the situation - no change these past 20 years which means that all Harbeth speakers from the P3 to the M40 were designed this way ....
I do not use 'high-end' or 'exotic' amplifiers at any time during or after the design process as I have little personal curiosity about such equipment when there is a vast sea of unexplored loudspeaker matters that I would like to investigate. Just as an example, I do not use/own/posess/trial Plinius amplifiers (just to mention one brand - I could have quoted many others) although I am aware that there are many happy customers who are using similar units with excellent results. If an exotic amplifier reaches my desk for evaluation I would of course make time to investigate it, but thus far it hasn't.
Here is the overview of 'where I'm at' which is the same as 'where I've been' concerning my selection of amplifier (brand):
1. I made a decision in about 1975 to stick to one UK brand that I had great confidence in. I was inspired by the ethos of the company, the pragmatic engineering and the conservative styling. I'm glad that I did: it has meant that for me the amplifier subject is settled.
2. It was a brand I dreamed of owning, was the first serious hifi amplifier I saved up my pennies for and finally purchased. I still get a kick out of owning these elegant units (sad though that may seem!). I totally believed in the designer, and still do.
3. The after care is absolutely the best in the business: inexpensive, fast, professional. I've used it several times over the years - twice this year to replace capacitors that have inevitably dried out. If I had to choose between after-care or the last 2% of fidelity from an unknown brand, I'd go for after-care every time.
4. I have bought amps from this brand when I've seen them advertised privately in the local paper (older users perhaps retiring and clearing their homes) and I have at least 10 pieces across various model ranges. I make sure that they are all in fully serviced, operational condition. I could pick any example to use as a reference.
5. There are only big, chunky, simple standard components used on big PCB's: parts will be available forever from RS*/Premier. No exotic bits at all. No digital parts. Simple, hand soldering. The circuit diagrams are readily available: no secrets, no mythology. The later designs are self calibrating and there is nothing to drift - excepting capacitor ageing which applies to all amplifiers.
6. There is a very big world-wide installed customer base and all of these customers are serious music lovers - our sort of people. The products were well designed and will long outlast their owners, including me. There is a natural synergy between a Harbeth user and an owner of these amplifiers.
7. The performance is good+. It is not super high-end AND THAT IS A GOOD THING. If I can get the speakers to sound good on my amps they will sound fantastic if you have the time/money to experiment with other amps. I don't have the time, and I'd rather invest money in test equipment. Incidentally, the same test equipment used to measure speakers is used to measure amplifiers so it's very easy to give an amp a calibration test.
8. I am fearful that if I change my long standinging policy of using these amps the results will be unpredictable. I don't need to change so I won't!
9. As I designed the amplifiers used in the Xpression!, Circle and Monitor 40 Active speakers I can also use these basic MOSFET units as general purpose power amps: picture of the M40A active system attached including the lash-up prototype M40s three power amps: bass, mid, top. Designing these has given me a little oversight into the matter of amplifier design - but it has not induced me to change away from my hoard of amplifiers!
10. As I have mentioned many times before, my job and duty is to ensure that the electrical impedance (the load the amp sees when connected to a Harbeth speaker) is benign so that it will work with any credible amplifier available anywhere on earth. The elecrical load of Harbeth speakers are published on the web site.
11. From time to time if I see an amplifier at a boot sale (pocket money: maximum spend $40) I'll buy it just for fun. I have a Denon, a Technics, a Kenwood, a Sherwood, a Linsley Hood, an old Leak 30+, a Sony and an Arcam and they all work well with Harbeth speakers - exactly as I would expect. They are uncalibrated, unserviced so I wouldn't use them as 'references' but they certainly do work OK. Of all of these entry-level amps the 10-15 year old Denon or Technics are the most impressive, closest to what I'd call a real amplifier and (no-coincidence) the heaviest. Their (claimed) Class A-like output seems to have lots of power and are silent. I guess that they have decently sized transformer. But - beware - unserviced amps of that age are probably well beyond their design life and if they fail they could destroy your speakers hence they are not recommended except for the brave.
12. Digital amps: I have a watching brief on these. However, my evaluation of one a few years ago revealed that it produced so much radio frequency interference that the speaker wires, crossover and drive units acted as an AM radio transmitter. The RF output made it impossible to use an AM radio anywhere in the same house. This is due to the switching nature of these units and the inability to completely filter the unwanted RF signal from the usable audio. It doesn't appeal to me intellectually that my speakers should act as transmitters. Maybe technology has moved on but the marketing hyperbolae surrounding these early digital amps quietly avoided this issue. Uncomfortable.
That's it. It's always worth checking with me if you hear rumours floating around the internet about what I like/don't like, use/don't use, am developing/am not developing. Pass this on!
"What amplifier does the designer use?"
To cancel misinformation attributed to this subject, here is the situation - no change these past 20 years which means that all Harbeth speakers from the P3 to the M40 were designed this way ....
I do not use 'high-end' or 'exotic' amplifiers at any time during or after the design process as I have little personal curiosity about such equipment when there is a vast sea of unexplored loudspeaker matters that I would like to investigate. Just as an example, I do not use/own/posess/trial Plinius amplifiers (just to mention one brand - I could have quoted many others) although I am aware that there are many happy customers who are using similar units with excellent results. If an exotic amplifier reaches my desk for evaluation I would of course make time to investigate it, but thus far it hasn't.
Here is the overview of 'where I'm at' which is the same as 'where I've been' concerning my selection of amplifier (brand):
1. I made a decision in about 1975 to stick to one UK brand that I had great confidence in. I was inspired by the ethos of the company, the pragmatic engineering and the conservative styling. I'm glad that I did: it has meant that for me the amplifier subject is settled.
2. It was a brand I dreamed of owning, was the first serious hifi amplifier I saved up my pennies for and finally purchased. I still get a kick out of owning these elegant units (sad though that may seem!). I totally believed in the designer, and still do.
3. The after care is absolutely the best in the business: inexpensive, fast, professional. I've used it several times over the years - twice this year to replace capacitors that have inevitably dried out. If I had to choose between after-care or the last 2% of fidelity from an unknown brand, I'd go for after-care every time.
4. I have bought amps from this brand when I've seen them advertised privately in the local paper (older users perhaps retiring and clearing their homes) and I have at least 10 pieces across various model ranges. I make sure that they are all in fully serviced, operational condition. I could pick any example to use as a reference.
5. There are only big, chunky, simple standard components used on big PCB's: parts will be available forever from RS*/Premier. No exotic bits at all. No digital parts. Simple, hand soldering. The circuit diagrams are readily available: no secrets, no mythology. The later designs are self calibrating and there is nothing to drift - excepting capacitor ageing which applies to all amplifiers.
6. There is a very big world-wide installed customer base and all of these customers are serious music lovers - our sort of people. The products were well designed and will long outlast their owners, including me. There is a natural synergy between a Harbeth user and an owner of these amplifiers.
7. The performance is good+. It is not super high-end AND THAT IS A GOOD THING. If I can get the speakers to sound good on my amps they will sound fantastic if you have the time/money to experiment with other amps. I don't have the time, and I'd rather invest money in test equipment. Incidentally, the same test equipment used to measure speakers is used to measure amplifiers so it's very easy to give an amp a calibration test.
8. I am fearful that if I change my long standinging policy of using these amps the results will be unpredictable. I don't need to change so I won't!
9. As I designed the amplifiers used in the Xpression!, Circle and Monitor 40 Active speakers I can also use these basic MOSFET units as general purpose power amps: picture of the M40A active system attached including the lash-up prototype M40s three power amps: bass, mid, top. Designing these has given me a little oversight into the matter of amplifier design - but it has not induced me to change away from my hoard of amplifiers!
10. As I have mentioned many times before, my job and duty is to ensure that the electrical impedance (the load the amp sees when connected to a Harbeth speaker) is benign so that it will work with any credible amplifier available anywhere on earth. The elecrical load of Harbeth speakers are published on the web site.
11. From time to time if I see an amplifier at a boot sale (pocket money: maximum spend $40) I'll buy it just for fun. I have a Denon, a Technics, a Kenwood, a Sherwood, a Linsley Hood, an old Leak 30+, a Sony and an Arcam and they all work well with Harbeth speakers - exactly as I would expect. They are uncalibrated, unserviced so I wouldn't use them as 'references' but they certainly do work OK. Of all of these entry-level amps the 10-15 year old Denon or Technics are the most impressive, closest to what I'd call a real amplifier and (no-coincidence) the heaviest. Their (claimed) Class A-like output seems to have lots of power and are silent. I guess that they have decently sized transformer. But - beware - unserviced amps of that age are probably well beyond their design life and if they fail they could destroy your speakers hence they are not recommended except for the brave.
12. Digital amps: I have a watching brief on these. However, my evaluation of one a few years ago revealed that it produced so much radio frequency interference that the speaker wires, crossover and drive units acted as an AM radio transmitter. The RF output made it impossible to use an AM radio anywhere in the same house. This is due to the switching nature of these units and the inability to completely filter the unwanted RF signal from the usable audio. It doesn't appeal to me intellectually that my speakers should act as transmitters. Maybe technology has moved on but the marketing hyperbolae surrounding these early digital amps quietly avoided this issue. Uncomfortable.
That's it. It's always worth checking with me if you hear rumours floating around the internet about what I like/don't like, use/don't use, am developing/am not developing. Pass this on!
I'm just trying to save somebody from being on the receiving end of a condescending diatribe against amps. The quoted text above is not always the tone you get when the question comes up.
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
I think it's Quad. I've done a bit of research on the site and know that he runs several Quad power amps with a passive pre amp.
H. J. Leak? Vintage, or had you forgotten? 
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
H. J. Leak? Vintage, or had you forgotten?
Actually, Terry Bateman from Rega is a Leak enthusiast.
So with 6 weeks or so on these speakers an update....
"Love."
That kind of sums it up. But I have learned a few things. Among that is how important the rest of my chain is. I've tried a few different amps on them, and the Aleph 30 showed up in there, also a Sony V-Fet, my previous amp the Grodinsky 5 was brought out, my tube amp (RIP, temporarily).
Certain combos just had me not liking the whole setup...with only a change in the amp. That goes directly against the designer's commentary but I can't argue with my attention span or ears. The Sony V-fet, for example, sounds good on my SS-m7 speakers but with the Harbeths was a bit strident and lacking in the Aleph's transparency. I think the Aleph has spoiled me. I'd like to have the Levinson back to hear it on them, but finances meant one had to go to get the other. The Levinson was transparent to the point of being boring and flat sounding in certain combinations but I don't know about this particular combination (it worked great with the Quad 63s, and never sounded bad, it just didn't grab me).
I also rolled a few preamps, most time spent with the Klyne and a McCormack TLC-1 deluxe in both passive and buffered mode. The Aleph lost some of its magic with the McCormack. I like the McCormack in some other contexts, it just didn't have any oomph to get this particular system up and hopping. But with the Klyne/Aleph setup, everything just works perfectly. It's the best sound I've had here in the time I've been in the hobby.
"Love."
That kind of sums it up. But I have learned a few things. Among that is how important the rest of my chain is. I've tried a few different amps on them, and the Aleph 30 showed up in there, also a Sony V-Fet, my previous amp the Grodinsky 5 was brought out, my tube amp (RIP, temporarily).
Certain combos just had me not liking the whole setup...with only a change in the amp. That goes directly against the designer's commentary but I can't argue with my attention span or ears. The Sony V-fet, for example, sounds good on my SS-m7 speakers but with the Harbeths was a bit strident and lacking in the Aleph's transparency. I think the Aleph has spoiled me. I'd like to have the Levinson back to hear it on them, but finances meant one had to go to get the other. The Levinson was transparent to the point of being boring and flat sounding in certain combinations but I don't know about this particular combination (it worked great with the Quad 63s, and never sounded bad, it just didn't grab me).
I also rolled a few preamps, most time spent with the Klyne and a McCormack TLC-1 deluxe in both passive and buffered mode. The Aleph lost some of its magic with the McCormack. I like the McCormack in some other contexts, it just didn't have any oomph to get this particular system up and hopping. But with the Klyne/Aleph setup, everything just works perfectly. It's the best sound I've had here in the time I've been in the hobby.
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Well done, John. Great speakers with all of the complimentary pieces to get the goodie out of them.
I'll be updating the Excite thread soon as well...pretty similar feelings about them.
What are the sources that you have settled on in the setup? Are they in your signature?
Sources are the VPI Classic with the Zyx Yatra LOMC through a Dynavector step up into a Juicy Music Tercel II phono-pre and the EMM Labs CDSA cd/SACD player. I also occasionally use my laptop through an Apogee Duet II DAC. I've used the Well Tempered as well, with a V-15vmr, with good results, but it was acquired for, and currently used in, my second system. The Harbeths do all of these sources justice.
The overall lesson here seems to be that system synergy trumps most other elements.
For example, your post shows that your favorite speakers don't sound good with some combinations that work perfectly well with other speakers.
Fascinating stuff, John... can't wait to hear how the coming 40.1s do!
For example, your post shows that your favorite speakers don't sound good with some combinations that work perfectly well with other speakers.
Fascinating stuff, John... can't wait to hear how the coming 40.1s do!
cubdog
banging through drywall
can't wait to hear how the coming 40.1s do!
That's funny! And probably true. :thmbsp:
cubdog